# The Ghostship in Oakland, California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782 "2016-12-03T22:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/121 "2016-12-07T08:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > A refrigerator could have been the cause of the warehouse fire in Oakland that left 36 people dead, according to government officials. Alameda County Sheriff Gregory Ahern said he’d been told by the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that a refrigerator might have been the cause of the fatal blaze, Ahern’s office confirmed Tuesday. > > Jill Snyder, the special agent over ATF’s San Francisco office, said it is too early to say whether a refrigerator caused the fire, though she did say it was a potential source of ignition, the Associated Press reported. One of the people who escaped the flames told authorities there were flames coming from the refrigerator, KTVU reported. “On that back wall, there’s a significant 45 degree angle burn,” Ahern told KTVU. > **[Officials: Refrigerator may have been source of Oakland fire](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/06/manager-ghost-ship-incredibly-sorry-after-tragedy/95032514/)** > > One victim texted "I'm going to die" followed by "I love you." If this is true then is was apparently a coincidence that the fire started when it did. I assumed that is was something done by the people at the party: ranging from a discarded cigarette or joint to overloaded electrical wiring. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/122 "2016-12-07T12:38:02Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [Officials: Refrigerator may have been source of Oakland fire](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/06/manager-ghost-ship-incredibly-sorry-after-tragedy/95032514/) > > If this is true then is was apparently a coincidence that the fire started when it did. I assumed that is was something done by the people at the party: ranging from a discarded cigarette or joint to overloaded electrical wiring. The place was [amateurishly wired](http://sfist.com/2016/12/04/official_death_toll_in_oakland_ware.php) and pretty much a time bomb waiting to go off. > [@](#): > > Former resident Shelley Mack, who lived in the space for five months in 2014, told the East Bay Times that she had personally witnessed generator fires in the space, as well as artists employing butane torches, and there were showers on the second level that had hot water heated with propane. Another former resident described a place “strewn with electrical wires that sometimes sparked” and said it “often smelled like burning wires and wood.” The more I hear about the place, the more the real surprise is that it hadn’t \*already \*burned down. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/123 "2016-12-07T16:06:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > … apparently a coincidence that the fire started when it did. Maybe. But when you bring in a whole bunch of people for a music event with lights, amps, etc. you’re putting a considerable extra strain on an electrical system that was, to put it mildly, sub-standard. It wouldn’t be strange for that extra load to induce failure at an already marginal location. One possibility is that voltage dropped, the culprit refrigerator responded by sucking more current, which exceeded what the crappy wiring could safely carry. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/124 "2016-12-07T18:50:59Z")
The search of the building is complete, and the final death count is 36. 35 of the victims have been identified. [25 of the names](http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12/05/oakland-fire-list-of-those-killed-in-the-ghost-ship-blaze/) have been released to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/125 "2016-12-07T18:52:22Z")
36 is terrible. But it seems as if it could have been much worse. (“Tom said, limply.”) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/126 "2016-12-07T19:25:01Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > 36 is terrible. But it seems as if it could have been much worse. Not really. There are estimates of only 50-100 people or so in total in the building. > **[Death toll from Oakland 'Ghost Ship' warehouse fire rises to 33 killed](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/04/oakland-ghost-ship-warehouse-fire-deaths-24)** > > Recovery teams continue ‘bucket by bucket’ search after Friday night blaze in mixed-use building which had a history of code violations How many fatalities would you expect from that number of people? [I would expect at least half of the people to get out leaving at most 25-50 deaths] ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/127 "2016-12-07T19:40:49Z")
The early reports had more people and fewer known to get out. I am thinking of the Rhode Island fire where the numbers just kept climbing by the news-hour. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/128 "2016-12-07T19:44:53Z")
The city was very aware of all the building codes that were being violated so they should had of the owner(s) shut the building down and get it fix and had them pay a fine for each day until it was fixed ! This tragic could had been prevented . ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/129 "2016-12-07T19:57:14Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > The city was very aware of all the building codes that were being violated so they should had of the owner(s) shut the building down and get it fix and had them pay a fine for each day until it was fixed ! This tragic could had been prevented . ☹ 20/20 hindsight. Most cities like Oakland have hundreds if not thousands of buildings out of safety compliance and it’s a continual tide (against budgetary limits, when not actual cuts) to keep the worst violations covered. The residents and regular visitors knew the building was, in every sense, a firetrap. Vaguely trusting the owner, God, luck and youth was not wise. While this might seem “blaming the victims” it’s really blaming the owner and others who encourage this sort of vague “artistic outlaw” culture that fosters and feeds the notion, already strong enough in twenty-somethings and “artists,” that the rules don’t apply to them. Yes, preventable. But not only by the city, and not even primarily. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/130 "2016-12-07T20:11:21Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > 36 is terrible. But it seems as if it could have been much worse. Yes - let’s hope it stays that way. But some questions remain. Only a couple of days ago the death total was said to be 36, with 24 (!) still not accounted for. Was this bogus, or were all those people who escaped, but hadn’t yet contacted the people who were wondering about them? Seems strange. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/131 "2016-12-07T20:35:09Z")
Xema: I think it mostly had to do with identification of bodies. For each body which hasn’t been positively identified (DNA, dental records, etc) then there is a person not accounted for. Then there are people who were mistakenly thought to be at the party but weren’t–and can’t be contacted for one reason or another–traveling… ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/132 "2016-12-07T20:39:20Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Only a couple of days ago the death total was said to be 36, with 24 (!) still not accounted for. Was this bogus, or were all those people who escaped, but hadn’t yet contacted the people who were wondering about them? Seems strange. Some of the people used pseudonyms, and there were transgendered people in there who had changed their names at some point. There were probably people who were listed twice under different names. There may have also been people who, for whatever reason, are leery of talking to the police (I don’t mean to imply that they’re criminals, but there is a sort of underground subculture of people who distrust authority). Early reports of disasters are often wrong. I remember the early estimates of deaths on 9-11 were about 8000 people. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/133 "2016-12-07T21:39:27Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Their website looks like it’s from about 2000, or is that the whole idea? I dunno. The whole place when my wife and I went had about 4000 headless stuffed animals in one pile against the moldy wall, and then the heads were against another. We went to go see some surprise show, which was a Japanese guy banging on a gong for 2 hours. There were a lot of folding chairs, and a pile of them that were broken against some weird acid trip mural on another moldy wall. I picked up a guy that was overdosing on something and sat his ass up so he wouldn’t have his face in his own vomit, which was starting to dry on the floor. He was super sweaty, so I figured he had some bad MDMA substitute or something. He was at least conscious. The “Dorito Lady” came by wanting to sell us some chips out of a Sam’s Club pack, we declined. Kept an eye on Ravey McPukeyPants, made him drink a bottle of water we bought him, and then left. We posted a review of Super Happy Fun Land to our friends on the Facebook, to which a few of our more well traveled friends said, “Oh damn, if we knew you were going we would have stopped you.” I think this was 2011 we went??? / Hijack ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/134 "2016-12-07T23:32:06Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Some years ago when a whole bunch of houses went up in flames during yet another southern-California wildfire, an acquaintance of mine who was a firefighter in the area told me something interesting. In the aftermath of the fires, local municipalities had made a decision to change their building codes to require additional residential fireproofing measures in high-risk areas – things like fire-resistant roofs and siding, no flammable vegetation near houses, and so on. Once the decision was made and publicized, the new rules were set to take effect at some later date, like 6-12 months in the future. The result was a massive construction rush as homeowners, rebuilding after the conflagration, sought to have their new homes completed before the deadline so that they wouldn’t have to comply with these pesky new rules that were supposed to protect them from repeating the horrible experience they had just gone through. > > :smack: That ain’t new. Chicago passed an ordinance after the Great Fire of 1871 requiring new construction within the burnt zone be of fireproof materials. For years after, real estate ads for developments outside the burnt zone prominently advertised “Outside Fire Limits!” meaning “you can build a wooden house.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/135 "2016-12-08T00:42:22Z")
If a property owner’s insurance does not include an ordinance/code upgrade clause, or has an ordinance/code upgrade clause set to the code at the date of loss rather than the code at the date of rebuilding, then if there are code changes, it may be financially challenging for an owner to rebuild. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/136 "2016-12-08T01:36:33Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Some years ago when a whole bunch of houses went up in flames during yet another southern-California wildfire, an acquaintance of mine who was a firefighter in the area told me something interesting. In the aftermath of the fires, local municipalities had made a decision to change their building codes to require additional residential fireproofing measures in high-risk areas – things like fire-resistant roofs and siding, no flammable vegetation near houses, and so on. Once the decision was made and publicized, the new rules were set to take effect at some later date, like 6-12 months in the future. The result was a massive construction rush as homeowners, rebuilding after the conflagration, sought to have their new homes completed before the deadline so that they wouldn’t have to comply with these pesky new rules that were supposed to protect them from repeating the horrible experience they had just gone through. > > :smack: Doesn’t it ever occur to people that there are some places where people really aren’t supposed to live? :smack: Good heavens, the Native Americans didn’t even live in some of those areas, although they would hunt on them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/137 "2016-12-08T02:15:06Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > The city was very aware of all the building codes that were being violated so they should had of the owner(s) shut the building down and get it fix and had them pay a fine for each day until it was fixed ! This tragic could had been prevented . ☹ > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > 20/20 hindsight. Most cities like Oakland have hundreds if not thousands of buildings out of safety compliance and it’s a continual tide (against budgetary limits, when not actual cuts) to keep the worst violations covered. Here’s part of the problem: stagnant wages, unemployment, underemployment, and soaring housing costs. You tear down tenements and slums and SRO’s and build better housing, but it’s significantly more expensive. So where do you think the poor people who used to lived in the flea-traps and boarding houses go? They don’t suddenly get more money so they can afford the nice, new shiny places. They wind up in illegal housing that is even worse than what they had before. I guarantee Oakland has more buildings just as dangerous that also have people living in them. Every city does. And no one really gives a damn - if they did, we’d have actual affordable housing instead of people living in death-trap warehouses, and those people only being noticed when they die in a fire. > [@](#): > > While this might seem “blaming the victims” it’s really blaming the owner and others who encourage this sort of vague “artistic outlaw” culture that fosters and feeds the notion, already strong enough in twenty-somethings and “artists,” that the rules don’t apply to them. That, and, as I said, lack of resources combined with unaffordable housing and a lack of a real social safety net. > [@](#): > > Yes, preventable. But not only by the city, and not even primarily. As I said - if the city shut all those places down where do you think all those people would go? Where would they live? > [@John\_Bredin](#): > > That ain’t new. Chicago passed an ordinance after the Great Fire of 1871 requiring new construction within the burnt zone be of fireproof materials. For years after, real estate ads for developments outside the burnt zone prominently advertised “Outside Fire Limits!” meaning “you can build a wooden house.” :smack: A lot of the new, post 1871 construction was a brick shell and wooden floors and rafters. They were less likely to catch fire, but when they did they turned into giant brick ovens, and after the fire was out the walls tended to collapse. Where they’ve been retrofitted with modern sprinklers they aren’t too bad, but if they don’t have sprinklers or they aren’t working you get something like the [Great Gallery Fire of 1989](http://www.chicagolife.net/content/art/The_Great_Gallery_Fire). No loss of life there, but it shows that even if you try to comply with regulations you can still lose an entire building. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/138 "2016-12-08T14:35:03Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Maybe. > > But when you bring in a whole bunch of people for a music event with lights, amps, etc. you’re putting a considerable extra strain on an electrical system that was, to put it mildly, sub-standard. It wouldn’t be strange for that extra load to induce failure at an already marginal location. > > One possibility is that voltage dropped, the culprit refrigerator responded by sucking more current, which exceeded what the crappy wiring could safely carry. I still haven’t seen much info on the party organizers themselves apart from some info when the story broke… 100% Silk West Coast Tour or something like that. There was even a music label the artist(s) was associated with. I don’t know what that really says in this day and age. What time did the fire start? I’ll bet they expected alot more people to show later in the night/morning. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/139 "2016-12-09T01:11:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What? For pointing out the obvious? No. Because your posts read like someone who’s an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/140 "2016-12-09T02:09:52Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > What time did the fire start? I’ll bet they expected alot more people to show later in the night/morning. The first 911 call was made shortly before midnight. Investigators think the fire started at around 11:30 p.m. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=8)