# The Ghostship in Oakland, California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782 "2016-12-03T22:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/141 "2016-12-09T14:55:07Z")
This is quite a tragedy! I did enjoy seeing all those pics, though. It seemed like the place was the ultimate in “California kitsch”… Groovy! (But ultimately dangerous) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/142 "2016-12-09T15:43:43Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Because your posts read like someone who’s an asshole. You seem to be the only one who thinks this. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/143 "2016-12-09T15:56:03Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > You seem to be the only one who thinks this. The only one who thinks **octopus** ’s “posts read like someone who’s an asshole”? Nope, not the only one. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/144 "2016-12-10T07:28:44Z")
They ruled out the refrigerator as the cause. > **[Refrigerator ruled out as cause of Oakland fire that killed 36; no evidence...](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ghostship-oakland-warehouse-fire-20161209-story.html)** > > Investigators have ruled out a faulty refrigerator as the cause of a fire that killed 36 people in an Oakland warehouse last week. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/145 "2016-12-11T17:57:20Z")
Here are some updates: Mayor Schaaf has released inspection records going back thirty years. They reveal that the property owner was cited a few times for things like accumulation of trash, but not for anything inside the building. There is no record that the building has ever been inspected. There is video of a couple of Oakland police officers walking through the interior of the Ghost Ship. The police department says they were there to gain access to the roof of an adjacent building - that is, their business there had nothing to do with the Ghost Ship itself, or its residents. These cops didn’t report any hazardous conditions. The position of the police department is that their officers aren’t trained as inspectors, and it’s not their job to act as such. The New York Times is doing an investigative series, with entries [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/us/the-oakland-fire-delving-into-what-happened-and-why.html) and [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/11/us/the-oakland-fire-what-we-know-about-the-warehouse-owner.html). They talked to the VP of the local firefighters’ union, who said the Oakland Fire Department doesn’t have enough inspectors, and that the department went for several years without a fire marshal (the article doesn’t say which years). California law requires that commercial buildings be inspected annually, but a grand jury investigation in 2014 found that 4,000 buildings were not inspected because of “competing priorities.” Chor Nar Siu Ng, the owner of the building, also owns several other properties in Oakland, including an empty lot to the south and a building to the north, which you can see [here](https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x808f86f3ee67f335:0x48fde96207f1ed4!2m19!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m13!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/griselda%27s%2Bsalon%2Boakland%2Bca/@37.7781284,-122.2269116,3a,75y,165.13h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211ssmFZpoM6LNL0r4fkW_XB7Q*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x0:0x48fde96207f1ed4!5sgriselda%27s+salon+oakland+ca+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2ssmFZpoM6LNL0r4fkW_XB7Q&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEwO2x1uzQAhUnwFQKHXAvAUcQpx8IZTAK) (it’s the building with the “MODA” sign). A former tenant of the building, who ran a beauty salon, says she complained to the Ng family several times about hazardous conditions, such as sparking circuit boxes and light fixtures, a blocked emergency exit, holes in the floors and rats in the walls. The tenant says she once complained to the city about the rats, but the inspector told her that if he did anything about the problem the building would close and everyone would be out of business. Another tenant of the same building reported similar conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/146 "2016-12-11T17:58:58Z")
I’d be surprised if any somewhat economically challenged city in the US was any different - or even most thriving ones. SF and NYC , maybe. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/147 "2016-12-11T18:29:47Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > No. Because your posts read like someone who’s an asshole. I can’t help that you and a few others are hypersensitive pussies. In the real world actions have consequences. Having a show where the place is overcrowded, with sketchy wiring, people probably doped up, and inside a literal tinderbox seems a bit dangerous. I’m not saying anyone should’ve been hurt but safety rules and regulations exist for a reason. It’s like the dumb asses who text and drive. I hope they don’t kill themselves or an innocent \*\*responsible \*\* family but it’s no surprise when they do. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/148 "2016-12-11T18:55:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I can’t help that you and a few others are hypersensitive pussies. In the real world actions have consequences. Having a show where the place is overcrowded, with sketchy wiring, people probably doped up, and inside a literal tinderbox seems a bit dangerous. I’m not saying anyone should’ve been hurt but safety rules and regulations exist for a reason. It’s like the dumb asses who text and drive. I hope they don’t kill themselves or an innocent \*\*responsible \*\* family but it’s no surprise when they do. You seem to be blaming the one group of people who are not to blame. It is not the concert goers’ responsibility to determine whether the concert is safe. They have every reason to think that this has been taken care of. Now, the owner, the people who arranged the concert, and the people who set up any dangerous stuff–they have a responsibility. But the concert goers? It’s not their fault. That’s like blaming a bus passenger because the bus driver was texting. You appear to be blaming the victims. And that is fairly characterized by “being an asshole.” And, just as a bonus tip: calling someone a “hypersensitive pussy” or similar is not a great way to convince anyone that you aren’t being an asshole. I almost didn’t use “seem” and “appear” above. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/149 "2016-12-11T20:07:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It is not the concert goers’ responsibility to determine whether the concert is safe. They have every reason to think that this has been taken care of. > > Now, the owner, the people who arranged the concert, and the people who set up any dangerous stuff–they have a responsibility. But the concert goers? It’s not their fault. People have a responsibility to themselves to take care of their own safety. If they don’t they are going to get hurt. It’s obvious you don’t drive a car, because if you did you would know that you have to keep your eyes open for other drivers doing crazy things and take appropriate avoidance behaviors. Instead it seems your philosophy is “it’s his responsibility not to run into me so I don’t have to do this”. While it’s true that its certainly difficult in many instances to see safety defects in the Ghostship situation some of them were very obvious–the crazy stairs… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/150 "2016-12-11T20:40:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You seem to be blaming the one group of people who are not to blame. It is not the concert goers’ responsibility to determine whether the concert is safe. They have every reason to think that this has been taken care of. > > Now, the owner, the people who arranged the concert, and the people who set up any dangerous stuff–they have a responsibility. But the concert goers? It’s not their fault. That’s like blaming a bus passenger because the bus driver was texting. > > You appear to be blaming the victims. And that is fairly characterized by “being an asshole.” > > And, just as a bonus tip: calling someone a “hypersensitive pussy” or similar is not a great way to convince anyone that you aren’t being an asshole. I almost didn’t use “seem” and “appear” above. The owner may or may not be responsible. The organizer and participants share some responsibility. Did any of them think this was a legitimate business with licenses, insurance, and permits? And no I’m not blaming the victims if you read what I wrote I say they have some personal responsibility to exercise common sense. It’s not their fault a tragic accident occurred. I never said it was. It is partially there responsibility to exercise sound judgment in sketchy situations. If someone walks through the ruins of Detroit in a KKK outfit in the middle of the night it’s not his or her fault if harm befalls them. But we can both agree that the decisions made were not the wisest. Driving defensively, having additional liability insurance, having bear spray at yellowstone and staying out of the thermal features, wearing reflectors, etc aren’t things people do because if an accident occurs not doing those things would mean they are at fault. These are actions prudent people do to reduce risk. I don’t blame people that don’t deserve blame for tragedies. I do like to point out that in the real world exercising judgement to reduce risk is the sign of a mature mind and it’s something we should want the citizenry to do. From everything to taking out a mortgage or a student loan or driving a car we like to point the finger at someone else if a bad outcome occurs. I don’t think that’s fair. Look BigT, people who don’t show respect don’t deserve respect. Bitch at them for calling other people names to begin with. Don’t bitch at deserved retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/151 "2016-12-11T23:45:56Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > The first 911 call was made shortly before midnight. Investigators think the fire started at around 11:30 p.m. Thanks! I still haven’t found anything on the rave artists/operaters. How many people would you expect to be involved? More than just one person I would think. Here is an interesting article from back in September on places like the Ghost Ship: \[Oakland's Underground DIY Spaces Are Fighting Sky-High Rent Prices - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/oaklands-underground-diy-spaces-are-fighting-sky-high-rent-prices-2016-9) One of the places is called the Salt Lick Collective. I saw a clip of a news conference called by a business owner next door who wanted to shut it down due to the risk to her business. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/152 "2016-12-12T00:53:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I can’t help that you and a few others are hypersensitive pussies. Not only an asshole, one who’s about 15 years old? Noted. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/153 "2016-12-12T18:15:55Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Not only an asshole, one who’s about 15 years old? Noted. Not only functionally illiterate and an over sensitive pussy but has indications of creepy tendencies. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/154 "2016-12-13T04:20:40Z")
It turns out the Oakland Fire Department has more problems than just fire inspection. The city was doing such a poor job of tracking hazard materials that last year the state stripped the OFD of its oversight authority. The story is [here](http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Oakland-inspection-problems-extend-to-hazardous-10789607.php?cmpid=gatehp). ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/155 "2016-12-13T21:35:22Z")
As someone who travels in circles close to this tragedy, I found this to be a [compelling read](https://medium.com/@hunterleight/johnny-johnny-i-love-you-8270dadc3353#.xu7l905r0). Rest in peace, Johnny. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/156 "2016-12-14T01:34:40Z")
The Oakland Fire Department now says the reason they never inspected the Ghost Ship building is that they had no information that the building was being used for anything - it was just sitting there empty, as far as they knew. I’d like to know how the OFD keeps track of which buildings are in use. Do they rely on property owners to tell them? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/157 "2016-12-14T05:36:18Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > I’d like to know how the OFD keeps track of which buildings are in use. Do they rely on property owners to tell them? It wouldn’t surprise me if there is some sort of notice that gets filed with the FD to put the building in an inspection queue during whatever permit process exists, but that only catches buildings that are put into use legally. I don’t see how they would learn of an illegal build-out. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/158 "2016-12-14T05:53:24Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I don’t see how they would learn of an illegal build-out. 1. People have filed complaints of people living there. 2. The police have been there on complaints of an illegal rave. This type information could have been forwarded to the fire department inspection service. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/159 "2016-12-14T06:02:44Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > 1. People have filed complaints of people living there. > 2. The police have been there on complaints of an illegal rave. As far as I know, all the complaints were about things exterior to the building, like accumulation of trash. I haven’t seen anything in the news about complaints of illegal occupancy or parties. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/160 "2016-12-14T16:31:55Z")
[Here’s another update](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/us/the-oakland-fire-what-we-know-about-building-inspections-and-the-neighborhood.html?_r=0) from the New York Times. New info from the article includes: The Oakland Fire Department is understaffed, with 63 vacancies. The city has budgeted for the positions, but no one has been hired to fill them. The department has been spending millions of dollars on overtime pay as a result. Chor Nar Siu Ng, the property owner, had a business license for the Ghost Ship location. It’s unclear whether OFD is supposed to use business license records to determine whether a building needs to be inspected. A spokesman for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection said the state mandates fire inspections for only four types of structures: public and private schools, high-rise buildings, residential buildings (like hotels, apartment homes and dormitories), and jails and other detention centers. Local laws can mandate inspections of other types of buildings. A member of the art collective says he offered to buy fire extinguishers for the Ghost Ship, but Derick Ion Almena didn’t take him up on it. A couple of extinguishers were found in the building after the fire. (My personal opinion here: extinguishers wouldn’t have helped - by the time partygoers knew the building was on fire it was too late to put it out with extinguishers.) I encourage anyone who’s interested in this topic to read the article. There’s a lot of good, interesting info in there (and in past installments in the series). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=9)