# The giant Scylla Thanksgiving crow eating thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049 "2003-11-24T22:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/341 "2003-11-28T05:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* Evidence leads to the opposite conclusion, so why would they do it? > > Because it had to be a legal war to get England to help. To make it legal it had to be self-defense, which means clear and present danger, which means they had to say they knew for a fact he had WMDs. > > **That’s** the reason they lied, I think. > \*\* I’m missing something here. Please help me out. The lie made it a legal war? England needed to be duped in to it? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/342 "2003-11-28T06:00:23Z")
So speaketh the Paris Hilton of SD politics. **Scylla** , I’m embarrassed for you. But that doesn’t mean I want you to stop. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/343 "2003-11-28T06:41:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drewbert \* > \*\*I usually stay way the hell away from these threads, but I’d just like to note that IMHO, **lokij** nailed it, back there at the bottom of page 5. \*\* Why thank you… I wondered if anybody actually read that… I so rarely post that I guess I get lost in the shuffle sometimes. ;\> ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/344 "2003-11-28T07:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > No, I don’t expect Scylla or anyone else to suddenly see the light and denouce Dear Leader for the feckless fraud that he is. Nah, that’d require more moral courage than **Scylla** has. It’s far easier to weasel your way out of an ethical dilemma than to readjust your values in the face of a known lie. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/345 "2003-11-28T08:35:27Z")
**The First Gospel of Scylla, 1 through 7** > [@](#): > > I’m not playing word games. My justification isn’t based on legalese. It’s based on changing the world and wiping out terrorism. > > Well-_first off_ you have to make it clear that countries that support or help terrorists are not long for this world. > > The _second thing_ you have to do is say that the world has changed, that there’s a **new deal** , and you have to make it stick. > > We are going to come to and tell you that you need to clean up your act, because _this is wa_r, and in war you do not leave threats to mature. You go after them proactively. > > That we will do this you can bank on. > > The _third thing_ we have to do is get people to like us. Invading a country may seem an odd way of doing this, but past enemies often become close friends. > > **If prosperity peace self-determination and pride is the choice, martyrdom doesn’t have much of a chance.** Did you invest in **GlurgeGurgitator 2004** without my knowledge? BTW: I can still make out a chunk of Churchill and one of _The Gipper_’s ears. You might need a new Spin Blade? **To the Crowd** : Are you guys really buying this rap? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/346 "2003-11-28T11:40:37Z")
Didn’t I see this with my kid some years back? Didn’t they call it _Pinky and the Brain_ Richard Perle: Are you pondering what I’m pondering, Mr. President? Bush: I think so, Brain. But do we really have enough hegemony in our hedge fund? _Narf!_ What are we gonna do tonight, Brain? Richard Perle: Same thing we do every night, Mr. President! Plot to take over the world! It was real funny then. 'Course, there weren’t any corpses scattered around… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/347 "2003-11-28T11:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*…_That’s_ the reason they lied, I think…, \*\* Gee, you think maybe, **Scylla**? You think maybe the same damn thing we have been tellling you for six goddam months may be the truth? Wow! You’re deep, guy. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/348 "2003-11-28T12:46:35Z")
I fed this into the Google translator: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Scylla_ > \*\*You lied. You misrepresented my arguments. You’ve devolved to childish name-calling when you didn’t get your way, and you do not return good faith or courtesy. \*\* and the English translation was: > [@](#): > > La la la la I can’t hear you gonna hold my breath till my face turns blue I didn’t do it I’m telling my dad mommy mommy mommy. Who honestly expected anything different from this pathetic piece of shit attention whore? ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/349 "2003-11-28T13:36:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* > If you are a tyrranical dictator, and you are going to cause trouble in the region, and you’ve played games trying to get nukes and demonstrated a desire to get and use things like nerve gas, nukes, and chemical weapons, and you applaud terrorists and support them even if it’s just morally, and if you cause us to get worried that you might be a threat… or give some bad stuff to terrorists, or help them out… We are not going to wait until something bad happens. \*\* But what the USA did was ok? Think about that paragraph. You can almost use that for the USA at this point. They lied to the world to get into Iraq, they have WMD, nerve gas, nukes. They’ve supported terrorists towards other countries. The USA gave Saddam, OBL and the Taliban large sums of money and support. The USA operates research facilities for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons -and continues to develop such weapons. The difference has always been this was ok at the end of the day because US defended freedom and stood for truth. But, in 3 short years, the USA on the world stage has gone from trying to hold the “protector of freedom” role into the role of the aggressor. It has now been shown the USA will lie to the world and WILL engage in pre-emtive strikes. To me, this is far worse then police who lie to a judge for a search warrent to kick open a drug dealers door. This gives the USA a form of tyrannt status. What makes Bush invading Iraq on a lie better then Saddam invading Kuwait? Someone in this thread mentioned three options the USA had to invade Iraq. Either force the vote and invade without due cause, back off or find some other legal justification. The WMD were supposed to be the “other legal justification”. But as these were fabrications, that brings us back to point one: an illegal war. Considering the USA is a large and powerful country, this makes other countries quite nervous. Nervous countries make more weapons and want to develop larger weapons. USA invading Iraq on a fabrication does not fight terrorists, it helps promote the terrorists point: That the USA is in fact an evil country that should be attacked. I think the USA will see far more attacks now then ever before. I also think invading Iraq on the fabrication of “protecting America” will, in the long run, cause more damage to American soil, it’s people and it’s allies. The Iraqi’s don’t see the USA as defenders of their freedom, they see them as the people who are kicking open the doors of their homes and sticking guns in their face. They want the US out of their country. While many didn’t want Saddam, they also don’t want the government the USA wants to install. So what difference does it matter to them? It was a mistake to invade Iraq on the first day, it is a mistake now and in 5 years it will still be a mistake. Personally, I’d rather see the US President getting blowjobs then getting people killed and tearing families (and the country) apart. George lied to the US people from day one when he said he was “a unifier, not a divider.” I think that man has created a giant canyon between the American people and an even larger one between the Christian and Islamic cultures. At what point does one become a war criminal? Could fabricating justifacations for war be considered the proverbial “gateway drug” that takes the user from something “not so bad” into worse things? I’m sorry if I see this as much more then a simple lie. Clinton lied. He lied about getting his knob sucked. But what Bush has done falls under something much worse in my book. The entire thing makes me angry and Bush might as well be wiping his arse with the American flag because he is going against everything it stands for. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/350 "2003-11-28T13:47:14Z")
**Scylla** : > [@](#): > > _If you’re expecting me to grab a beret and join the revolution and change my philosophies and beleifs, than I think the blame for unfulfilled expectations isn’t mine._ Come come now. Exclude the middle much? There’s a world of difference between choosing to no longer support Bush, on the one hand, and “joining the revolution,” on the other. I don’t expect you to change your “philosophies and beliefs” as a result of your admission, and I never said I did. I said that I expected such an admission on your part to also have practical consequences in the real world. If not, your admission is really worthless, and this discussion just so much hot air. Specifically, I expected your admission to lead you to reassess the Bush administration, strongly condemn his lying ass, and work to help boot the lying piece of shit out of office. I mean, come on dude, I’ve been waiting for this since June or so; 6 months, and for what? To listen to you prattle on about how yeah, he was lying, but I support him (and the war) anyway? Well, I’m underwhelmed by your useless admission, I must say. Look at **Airman** ; formerly an ardent supporter of Bush (I think), he’s planning to vote against him in 04, regardless of the opposing candidate. That’s a real world consequence. Or **Mona Lott** : > [@](#): > > - That lie is what will cause me to vote against Mr. Bush.\* There you go. A consequence. She’s holding her leaders accountable. But you? No way, apparently. In fact, I have yet to even see you condemn the fact that he lied. You seem rather to want to justify it, rationalize it, explain it away. Consider **lokji’s** frighteningly undemocratic argument: Bush had to lie because the people are too lazy, stupid, and unconcerned to support his agenda otherwise. Clearly, if his analysis is correct, then the Bush administration has little more than contempt for democracy and the democratic values the US supposedly represents. He is not interested in putting his case before the people in open and honest debate, and letting them (us) decide whose arguments hold most merit. He would rather co-opt the democratic process with spin, misrepresentation, and outright lies. And you support him! > [@](#): > > - Gimme a Lieberman in '04 and he’ll get my vote. Gimme another centrist choice and that will probably get my vote.\* Tis a crumb, but at least it’s something. I cannot for the life of me understand, however, how you could characterize Bush as “the lesser of two evils” compared to practically any other possible candidate, Democrat or Republican. Fucking Pigasus could do a better job. I’m going to hop now to your reply to **Spavined** : > [@](#): > > _How do you fight the terrorists?_ Well, perhaps more specifically, how might one go about fighting against Al Queda? As noted previously, Clinton did quite a lot on that front. Of course, obviously, if your going to fight Al Queda, you should start by _actually fighting_ Al Queda – not by invading a country that has _absolutely nothing to do_ with Al Queda whatsoever. But note how useful it is to talk about “terrorism,” rather than Al Queda. The field of focus is immediately enlarged to include, well, basically, just about anybody we want to include. Anybody can be a terrorist if we choose to call them one. > [@](#): > > - How do you prevent another 9/11?\* Dunno. Invade Iraq, is that your answer? > [@](#): > > - How do you change the world and a culture so that terrorism is no longer viable?\* I doubt that can be done. Never has happened before in history. But there are very strong arguments that current US actions are having the opposite affect: they are enhancing the conditions for “terrorism,” especially anti-American terrorism. > [@](#): > > - Well-first off you have to make it clear that countries that support or help terrorists are not long for this world. So, we retaliated in Afghanistan and removed the Taliban from power. This is good. It sends a clear message. Harbor or aid terrorists and you’ll be destroyed.\* What a load of crock. Consider the latest bombings. The invasion of Afghanistan has had virtually no effect on terrorism. And what countries _don’t_ support terrorism, really? The list is short – fucking hell, the US supports terrorism when it’s in its own interests. We supported Saddam Hussein, remember? > [@](#): > > - The second thing you have to do is say that the world has changed, that there’s a new deal, and you have to make it stick. > > You have to make clear that certain things that played in the past will no longer be allowed to play. > > If you are a tyrranical dictator, and you are going to cause trouble in the region, and you’ve played games trying to get nukes and demonstrated a desire to get and use things like nerve gas, nukes, and chemical weapons, and you applaud terrorists and support them even if it’s just morally, and if you cause us to get worried that you might be a threat… or give some bad stuff to terrorists, or help them out… We are not going to wait until something bad happens.\* That’s madness, **Scylla**. If anything, the opposite is happening; the invasion of Iraq has strengthened the hand of “failed”/”rogue” states. The US is now completely bogged down in Iraq; and extremely vulnerable, my friend. Other regional and world powers are gleefully supporting Iraqi opposition, because it is in their interest to see the US fail. We no longer have the resources to challenge such a state anywhere else – not without a draft, at the very least. > [@](#): > > - That’s the message that has to be sent, I beleive. We sent Saddam that message, and he fucked around, and he challenged us on it, and some of our allies challenged us on it.\* And there we have it, ladies and gentleman, in all its glory. Beautiful, right wing double-think at it very finest. Saddam did not “fuck around.” The US government sent a message – destroy all your “WMDs.” Saddam complied. And he told us so. And then, _by your own admission_, the US government went about concocting a pack of lies about Saddam “fucking around,” as a pretext for invasion. _The claim that Saddam “fucked around” is a lie._ He did not. But now afterwards, you finally admit that it was all a pack of lies, _only to turn around and continue to use those lies as justification for the war_. Somebody’s fucking around here, alright, but it ain’t Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/351 "2003-11-28T15:40:24Z")
Christ, I leave this thread alone for a few days and come back to find some of the biggest piles of steaming shit I’ve yet to hear. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **Well, that’s debateable, too. It can be argued that Saddam had been spoiling for a fight, and given his history of using WMD on his own people and our recent experiences with terrorism we were rather sensitive to the idea that those weapons might be turned on us.** His history of WMD? You mean his debatable use (there are some good arguments it actually was the Iranians) with samples that were given to him by the [United States?](http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/4185241.htm) So to recap, possibly using something once = History Riiiiiight. \*\* > [@](#): > > It turned out to be false, \*\* Oh whoops, our bad! :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > but I don’t think it was completely out-of-bounds to make that kind of assumption. \*\* Making assumptions is one thing, acting on them is another. \*\* > [@](#): > > What was out-of-bounds was the contention that those weapons were cocked and locked and ready to be used against us.\*\* Cocked and loaded? Hell, the bullet wasn’t even in the gun, and the gun didn’t even exist. \*\* > [@](#): > > Perhaps, if the inspections had gone on longer, we would have found out that the weapons didn’t exist. \*\* Isn’t that what those filthy French and Germans wanted? \*\* > [@](#): > > The problem was that Saddam had no credibility. If he had said that the sky was blue I would have looked out the window to check. So what the inspections thing came down to was this: Do you believe that Saddam was being honest and forthright with the inspectors, or do you believe that he was trying to sucker Hans Blix et al into falling for lies? \*\* The inspectors didn’t find much because it turns out that Saddam didn’t have much. Of course Saddam had no credibility, that’s why the inspectors were there. The bigger problem is that we were already on a timetable for war, because we had to get ass kicking before the summer or we’d wait another year. If anything we should have given France and the rest of them what they wanted, another 60 days, before we went in. \*\* > [@](#): > > I actually thought the latter, and so in my eyes it was justifiable nonetheless. But the “fiftenn minute” thing? That was obviously wrong. Unfortunately, I bought it. Oops.\*\* Yeah, oops :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > As that was what was used to justify the war, I can see why people have such a problem with it. \*\* Yes and the scary thing is, this was the best the best justification they could come up with, as I’ll assume they wanted to use their most convincing argument. Not only did you guys (looking at **Scylla** as well) eat the bullshit hook, line, and sinker, you’re too stupid to even care. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/352 "2003-11-28T16:08:14Z")
**World Eater** , I fucking conceded the goddamn point and yet you feel the need to insult me, to get in a few more jibes? Fuck you. I hope you’re never wrong, because I’ll be there to cash your chips, being an arrogant fucking prick the whole time like you’re being right now. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/353 "2003-11-28T16:47:23Z")
**drewbert** , **lokij** : interesting stuff. Similar to the nuanced justifications for this that have been brought forth by **LondonCalling**. Not saying that I agree, but obviously some good thought went into that post, as opposed to the usual crap being spewed by the congenitally dishonest. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/354 "2003-11-28T18:02:46Z")
Svin: It’s been a pleasure talking to you, and a pleasure talking with Spav. A few others have shown good faith and courtesy, like Wring. Unfortunately y’all are an exception. There’s a crowd here who’s primary interest here is to belittle attack and insult and partake in a pile on. For me, it’s drowning out the rest. I theorize that there’s a growing absence of conservative political thought to debate with on these boards, because the environment is too hostile for dissent. It does bother me to be attacked and called names. There’s an awful lot of insults and acrimony being thrown at me, and, in the final analysis it makes it not fun. So, I apologize for your good thoughts and those of others that I don’t I’m going to address, as they deserve to be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/355 "2003-11-28T18:20:13Z")
**Scylla** , I’m one of the people who thought you had already conceded enough back in October not to deserve a Thanksgiving pile on and I don’t think you need to change your political ideology or become a Democrat in order to preserve your integrity. I _am_ surprised, though, that you still think the invasion was justified even though you’ve kinda sorta conceded that it wasn’t entirely legal. I thought that conceding that Bush lied about WMDs was the _same_ as conceding that the war wasn’t justified. Let me ask you this: if GWB tells you next that Iran is an imminent threat and must be invaded will you believe him again? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/356 "2003-11-28T18:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Nah, that’s ok. Any fair minded person can see that you were bluffing. Pretty typical of your style. Toss out something that you can’t back up, and then try to pretend that you have too much dignity to answer. > > Maybe GeeDubya will try that! Wouldn’t that be great! > > “My fellow Merkins! I lied through my teeth, got a bunch of your kids killed, and God only knows how many Iraqis killed. But I’m the President, and I dont have to answer any snotty trick questions from people who might misrepresent and mischaracterize my answers. Look! Over there! Shiny!” > > Yeah, that’ll work. \*\* My fellow 'mercans, this is Chewbacca… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/357 "2003-11-28T18:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\ ***World Eater** , I fucking conceded the goddamn point and yet you feel the need to insult me, to get in a few more jibes? Fuck you. I hope you’re never wrong, because I’ll be there to cash your chips, being an arrogant fucking prick the whole time like you’re being right now. \*\* I didn’t see any concession, but feel free to point me in the direction of one. You’ve mentioned a few times that you still agree with this war, and that it was still the right thing to do. Now that we’ve removed WMD from the equation, what other justification does this war have? And if it’s because we are nice people, why would Iraqis deserve freedom any more then say, North Koreans? Lastly you never answered this. [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by minty green \* \*_ **Airman** , a simple question for you. Do you recognize the difference between the following?[ul][li]Negligently telling someone something that turns out not to have been correct. [_]Deliberately lying in order to accomplish an objective that the listeners would not otherwise have accepted.[/ul]\*\*[/li][/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/358 "2003-11-28T18:56:18Z")
**Scylla** : The lie has to be maintained, and even if you have acknowledged one facet of it, the reality is that your heroes continue feeding it. Same thing goes for Al-Queda connections with Iraq. You want to say that you already got that WMD was a fib. However, that and other lies that continue to say that Iraq was a key for the war on terror, do continue to be maintained by the administration. There are very compelling reasons why Iraq was a monumental error. What I see is that you are, if not weaseling, uncertain of what it means. (I mean, how can I be right in your own words, and then pages later be wrong?) This whole Iraq thing looks like Veggietale’s Larry boy and the fib from outer space: as I saw recently in a FOX report regarding Iraq and Al-Queda connections, the lies are getting bigger and bigger. “a lie can trap you, but the truth will set you free!” – Larry boy. (but I think he was paraphrasing Jesus there 🙂 ) Orwell was wrong, to maintain power you don’t need to force people into believing a lie to make them love big brother; what we have here is Big brother lying to us and telling us to ignore it too, can you feel the love? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/359 "2003-11-28T18:58:28Z")
This is NOT an academic exercise, for any of us. Bullshit can’t be allowed because it’s deadly, not just because it’s false: [Al Qaeda is badly wounded, but far from defeated](http://www.msnbc.com/news/997146.asp?0cl=c1) > [@](#): > > Although the administration likes to say that the war in Iraq and the war on terror are inseparable, the former has almost certainly diverted resources from the latter. Arabic translators, always in short supply, are in demand to interrogate Iraqi prisoners and help American soldiers talk to the locals. **Meanwhile, in Washington, transcripts of electronic intercepts of possible terrorist conversations pile up, unread and untranslated for weeks. _Similarly, many Special Operations soldiers who had been chasing through the mountains of Afghanistan looking for bin Laden and his followers were shifted over to Iraq to spend months fruitlessly searching for weapons of mass destruction._** > Administration officials insist that they have not been robbing Peter to pay Paul in the war on terror. Much of what the CIA knows about Al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists comes from other intelligence services…The CIA has a pipeline, lubricated by large amounts of cash, to the secret police in various Middle Eastern countries. > Still, the war in Iraq has not helped foster these special relationships. The security services of Middle Eastern despots are not enthusiastic about promises of democratic change coming from Bush, who made clear in his speech last week in England that America would push even its allies to become more democratic. After 9/11, Syrian intelligence began working with the CIA against a common enemy, the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, which wanted to both overthrow the Assad regime and help Al Qaeda attack the United States. But, intelligence sources tell NEWSWEEK, **the neocons in the Pentagon have been _undermining that relationship_ by accusing (without much proof) the Syrians of encouraging jihadists to cross into Iraq and of hiding Saddam’s WMD inside Syria.** Bush should have been spending Thanksgiving in Afghanistan, where our security interests were truly threatened. If 87 bil was going to be spent, it should have been spent there. Instead, because of the dishonesty and incompetence of this tinpot generalissimo and his equally dishonest minions, we’re everywhere but where we need to be. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/360 "2003-11-28T18:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > There’s a crowd here who’s primary interest here is to belittle attack and insult and partake in a pile on. For me, it’s drowning out the rest… Awwww, _pobrecito!_ A poor innocent set upon by vicious and heartless Liberals. When, oh when, will they cease to “misrepresent” and “mischaracterize” our own Rebecca of Donnybrook Farm. The very paragon of decorum and polite discourse, cruelly mistreated! One would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh out loud > [@](#): > > I theorize that there’s a growing absence of conservative political thought to debate with on these boards… Yeah, you said that before. What you can’t seem to come with is a rationale, why a board that attracts intelligent and educated people is hostile to your point of view. Must be those college professors conspiring wth the liberal media. Yeah. That must be it. > [@](#): > > … and those of others that I don’t I’m going to address, as they deserve to be. Huh? Whaaa? Did you translate that sentence into Japanese, and back again? Well, heck, as long as you’re here singing “Don’t Cry for Me, Argentina”, maybe you could list all those perfidious lies the war opponents are spreading around? Look, its very simple. You start slinging bullshit you can’t back up, I’m gonna bust you. Gleefully. If you then try to compare me to a little kid about to pee his pants, the gloves come off. Don’t start nothin’, won’t be nothin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=19)