# The giant Scylla Thanksgiving crow eating thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049 "2003-11-24T22:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/421 "2003-11-29T01:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cedric45 \* > \*\*Certainly this came about because Clinton’s ineffectiveness at doing _anything_ emboldened the terror mongers. “Hey, nothing happened after we killed those sailors in Yemen, let’s go for a bunch of civilians on their own soil!” Where was Clinton’s intellegence service? \*\* Wait, the Cole bombing happened a MONTH before the 2000 election. That means that the Clinton Administration had a whopping THREE months to “do something” before he left office. That strikes me as an awfully short deadline for any operation to accomplish something so complex, especially considering the distractions of the Florida controversy. I mean, I’m sure if you asked most people at the time which of the two events would impact their lives more, most would have said “Florida” without much hesitation… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/422 "2003-11-29T01:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Agreed, Chesney Hawks is most certainly a cunt. > > This thread is suddenly developing a Bikers vs. Hippies vibe. And I’m having a Peter Fonda moment . . . \*\* Er, hang on… am I a biker or a hippie in your “moment”? Because, I may, or may not, wish to beat you with this chain I’ve made out of daisies. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/423 "2003-11-29T01:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _by milroyj_ > > Let’s see here. Part of the problem is not locking the pilot’s cabin door for the last 30 years. Could you have picked a less-significant 9/11 Strawman than the cockpit door? You should at least have had the intellectual courtesy of mentioning the security screeners. The attacks on September 11, 2001 would have happened if a Democrat had been in the White House. There’s been nothing I’ve seen that reasonably proves the attacks were a direct assault on the Bush Administration’s policies. Our American approach to the world – in its current system – is to blame for the attacks. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/424 "2003-11-29T01:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **That’s been explained right in this very thread. That you don’t like the answer doesn’t change it: Clinton was on it, in a big way. He passed everything over to the new guy, who promptly dropped the ball so he could focus on the really important stuff, like making sure the Hilton sisters won’t have to pay any “death taxes” when they inherit.** Again, I ask: in what “big way” was Clinton “on it” that Bush was not? What policy did Clinton follow that Bush did not that allows you to reasonably place blame for 9-11 at Bush’s feet but not at Clinton’s? What measures were in place under Clinton that were not in place under Bush? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/425 "2003-11-29T02:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*Again, I ask: in what “big way” was Clinton “on it” that Bush was not? What policy did Clinton follow that Bush did not that allows you to reasonably place blame for 9-11 at Bush’s feet but not at Clinton’s? What measures were in place under Clinton that were not in place under Bush? \*\* That’s a fair question. I’m not sure how much to believe reports that Clinton officials briefed Bush officials on terrorism, but were completely ignored, and I don’t know if claims that antiterrorism budgets were “slashed” are true. Certainly I don’t think there was enough time for that to be done in a serious way. However, I believe **Stoid** was reacting to a post that implied, if not outright stated, that September 11 was entirely Clinton’s fault, and that Bush was fully blameless. So while your question is good, I think it might be just as well served asked of the poster Stoid was replying to, but reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/426 "2003-11-29T02:12:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Leaper \* > \*\*However, I believe **Stoid** was reacting to a post that implied, if not outright stated, that September 11 was entirely Clinton’s fault, and that Bush was fully blameless. So while your question is good, I think it might be just as well served asked of the poster Stoid was replying to, but reversed. \*\* And **cedric45** ’s post to which **Stoid** was replying was itself replying to an exceptionally stupid post by **minty** that heavily implied that if only Clinton was still in the White House, 9-11 would not have happened. **Cedric45** ’s post is clearly not stating that 9-11 was “entirely Clinton’s fault;” it is saying that the Clinton administration is not entirely blameless and that it is spurious to suggest that the Bush adminstration bears unique responsibility for that tragedy. In case you haven’t noticed, **Leaper** , it’s quite easy to go back and read earlier posts on this message board. Attempts at revisionist history such as what you wrote above are quite ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/427 "2003-11-29T02:22:09Z")
From the _inciteful_ post: > [@](#): > > Your assertion that Bush is to blame for 9-11 is totally without merit OR morality. I don’t blame **Stoid** for reacting the way he did. We get a lot of that “you’re not supposed to think that way” kind of stuff around here. The Brain Police context of the above quote _is_ pretty twisted. Anybody seen **Scylla**? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/428 "2003-11-29T02:25:17Z")
**Mr. B** : **Stoid** is a woman. Just for future reference. Speaking of which, thanks for that defense, **Stoid**. It’s very much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/429 "2003-11-29T02:29:00Z")
Whoops. Sorry, **Stoid**. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/430 "2003-11-29T02:33:07Z")
**Mr. B** : Yes, and the “Your assertion” refers to **minty** ’s implied assertion that Bush bore sole responsibility for 9-11. And that statement _was_ without merit or morality. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/431 "2003-11-29T02:59:20Z")
Respectfully, **Dewey** , this: > [@](#): > > …minty…heavily implied that if only Clinton was still in the White House, 9-11 would not have happened… is a pretty big leap to this: > [@](#): > > …minty’s implied assertion that Bush bore sole responsibility for 9-11… > [@](#): > > And that statement was without merit or morality. By your own words, it was not a statement. It was _implied_. Further, how is a thought _ever_ grounds for moral judgment? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/432 "2003-11-29T03:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **Could you have picked a less-significant 9/11 Strawman than the cockpit door? You should at least have had the intellectual courtesy of mentioning the security screeners.** Excuse me? It was **comrade elucidator** who brought up the cockpit door, not I. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/433 "2003-11-29T03:29:26Z")
**Mr. B** : **minty** ’s original quote reads thusly: > [@](#): > > Fuck those lies, amigo. Clinton made fighting terrorism a huge priority, and the guy fucking succeeded. 3,000 people were not murdered on Clinton’s watch. Bush’s “Operation Ignore” was responsible in large part for those deaths. If that doesn’t mean that Clinton is totally absolved of all responsibility for 9-11, and that Bush thus bears sole responsibility for allowing it to happen, then what do you suggest it means? And whether or not “immoral” is the correct descritor of that sentiment is a mere quibble. That sentiment reflects a kind of base partisanship that is both corrosive and blind. It deserves condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/434 "2003-11-29T03:34:12Z")
What part of “in large part” escapes you, Counselor? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/435 "2003-11-29T03:40:11Z")
Nothing. Those are weasel words, designed to preempt the obvious objection that Mohammad Atta, et al, bear primary responsibility for the attacks. That does not change the fact that the quote in question, taken in full, clearly indicates that Clinton bears zero responsibilty, and Bush bears all responsibility insofar as the government’s national security efforts vis-a-vis 9-11 are concerned. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/436 "2003-11-29T03:42:16Z")
Well, for starters:“in large part” does not mean quite the same thing as “sole responsibility”. For a lawyer, your nitpicking skills seem rather limited. My man **Spavined** , The Iowa Matlock, would eat your lunch. Nonetheless, I concur with your condemnation of blind and corrosive partisanship. I only regret I do not share your utter innocence of such. Alas. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/437 "2003-11-29T03:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **Well, for starters:“in large part” does not mean quite the same thing as “sole responsibility”.** No, but perhaps you missed the _other_ sentences in the quoted selection. You know, the ones that say Bubba made a “huge priority” out of fighting terrorism and that strongly imply that 3,000 people would not have died if only he had remained at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Read the whole paragraph, not just selected phrases. And don’t ever challenge my nitpicking skills again. I’m a hopelessly anal pedant, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/438 "2003-11-29T03:54:33Z")
Read it again yourself. Note the presence of all those qualifiers you insist are meaningless in your obsession to exclude the middle. Really, Dewey, you’re making quite the ass of yourself with this, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/439 "2003-11-29T04:01:41Z")
Spare me. The quoted language says Clinton “fucking succeeded” in fighting terrorism, as evidenced by the absence of 9-11 on his watch. If that isn’t a grant of absolution to Clinton, then I don’t know what is. And since Bush is the only president to follow Clinton, it follows that only Bush bears responsibility insofar as government action is concerned. The only asses here are those of you who keep insisting words mean something other than what they plainly say. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/440 "2003-11-29T04:12:57Z")
**Dewey** : How’s about you answer the specifics of the charge, as it seems to have hit some kind of nerve with you. The specifics are here: > [@](#): > > From **Sofa King** : > > Oh, you mean inaction like the use of[Predator UAVs](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/attack/main560293.shtml) to track and find Osama bin Laden, a program begun by Clinton an which produced three probable sightings in the year 00, which were discontinued by the Bush administration until one week prior to the attacks of 9/11. > [@](#): > > From **rjung** : > > Well, Clinton’s folks > [busted the folks behind the first WTC bombing attack, thwarted a dozen terrorist plots, tripled the FBI’s antiterrorism budget, and gave authorization to assassinate Osama bin Laden,](http://vander.hashish.com/articles/911/dontblameclinton.html) > so it’s not like he wasn’t doing anything from 1992-2000. > > As for the 9/11 attacks, when the Clintonites were leaving the White House and were transferring things to the Bush team, they already had a plan to take the fight to al Qaeda ready to roll. But since Clinton didn’t want to start a war just before he left office, he opted instead to have his folks [warn Bush’s Cabinet on the terrorism threat and let them handle it.](http://www.legalright.com/Page1.htm) > > Unfortunately for Bill Clinton (and Sandy Berger, and Richard Clark, and every other American out there), the Bush folks sat on their asses for nine months and did nothing about the problem: > quote: > > The proposals Clarke developed in the winter of 2000-01 were not given another hearing by top decision makers until late April, and then spent another four months making their laborious way through the bureaucracy before they were readied for approval by President Bush. > > Summary: Clinton went after al Qaeda like a man obsessed, but made the big mistake of assuming George W. Bush would be competent enough to continue the fight when the mantle was passed to him. Those are the specifics. Here’s a juicy quote from the last cite: “I’m coming to this briefing to underscore how important I think this subject is. I believe that the Bush Administration will spend more time on terrorism generally, and on al-Qaeda specifically, than any other subject.” — Clinton National Security Adviser SANDY BERGER, to Condi Rice, January 2001 Of course, it’s possible Condi thought those words meant something other than what they plainly say. Could be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=23)