# The giant Scylla Thanksgiving crow eating thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049 "2003-11-24T22:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/521 "2003-11-29T23:07:50Z")
:Big Al Gore sigh: It was not just you **Scylla** , but keep talking like you are not paying attention, and then see who can take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/522 "2003-11-29T23:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pantom \* > How’s about you answer the specifics of the charge, as it seems to have hit some kind of nerve with you. The specifics are here: Just wanted to give thanks, **pantom,** for digging up those links again. I can’t fucking _believe_ how this information is floating around in the public ether, and the Limbaugh-listening Dittohead Bushistas keep crowing “Clinton didn’t do anything against terrorism!” even though the contradictory evidence is **right there.** :rolleyes: I swear, it’s stuff like this that remind me why I could never vote Republican – you’d have to get a fucking lobotomy first before you can be dumb enough to swallow the GOP’s garbage. The Democrats might be ineffectual, but they don’t assume I’m an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/523 "2003-11-29T23:32:57Z")
**Stoid** , you said yourself we’ve used Clarke’s plan since 9/11 and noted how it pertained to Afghanistan. The cite raises a reasonable doubt that it would have been implemented without international cooperation, with sending troops in there and everything. I’m really curious to know whether you would have supported actions by either administration in Afghanistan before September 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/524 "2003-11-29T23:44:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\* > The liars, **Scylla** , other than the members of this board who are not buying your particular brand of snake oil, appear to be Congressmen and Senators who voted to give the President authority to go into Iraq who now criticize the invasion and occupation, and especially the justification for the invasion. That you should unload on these folks seems more than a little ironic since up until some date in the not too remote past you were buying and defending that justification: that their was a clear and present danger that Iraq would use WMDs against the United States and its vital national interests, directly or indirectly. \*\* They didn’t know that either, then. If they did, they shouldn’t have given him the athority. If they didn’t they shouldn’t have criticized the war. Since we didn’t know for a fact until after the war, the pre-war criticisms by those who voted in favor are perfidious. > [@](#): > > Where do you get off playing the liar card on people who were deceived by the same fraud that deceived you and which you defended so nobelly for so long. Because they did both from the same pool of knowledge. > [@](#): > > Now, had the President justified the war as a perogitive of the Big Dawg (the justification you ignominiously advance) Yeah it is ugly, but I’m still waiting for an alternative plan that doesn’t involve sitting on our ass until somebody turns Cincinatti into a cinder, and then doing something. > [@](#): > > He justified it as a measure necessary to the defense of the nation’s vital interests, with an emphases on _necessary_, a thing that had to be done and done now before the apocalypse was upon us. All that was a lie. No. That’s the big dawg. And I beleive that. The lie if you’ll recall is that Iraq had WMDs and they were ready to go. > [@](#): > > You now acknowledge that it was a lie. Your confusing the WMDs and the Dawg. > [@](#): > > Why do you vent your bile on what appears to be honorable men and women who, like you, were taken in by that well orchestrated lie? because if they were taken in by the lie they wouldn’t have attacked the President for Warmongering before the war started. > [@](#): > > Perhaps your rage at being deceived and at being so late in coming to the conclusion that you were deceived is misdirected. Rage? Nope. What I said was I saw no shortage of perfidy on those that oppose the war. The incessant cries of “where’s the perfidy” have given this comment a stature it did not have when I uttered it. > [@](#): > > Maybe, just maybe, you have 5too much of an emotional investment in the present Administration to be objective about its motives and adgenda? You react to you recantation as if you had been shown your own mother’s unchastity. Let me add I know nothing of your mother. Well then how do you know she’s not chaste? Huh? Actually, my emotionality occured in the first half of the thread in the form of frustration at bad faith and pricks who don’t return good faith. That’s pretty much my entire emotionality here. I had hoped there would be an exchange of ideas but once I realized that we were just going to snipe at each other and trade insults in the usual worthless fashion my frustration dissipitated and I’ve been having fun since. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/525 "2003-11-29T23:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > According to the other half of the argument here Clinton bears responsibility for 9/11 through his gross negligence, exhibiting such “vigilance” as removing all arabic speaking operatives from Afghanistan and letting Bin Laden go free when presented with the opportunity to get him in custody. Originally posted by Scylla. Further comment is superfluous, except to note that Arabic isn’t one of the languages spoken in Afghanistan, thereby rendering the clause above about the alleged removal of agents able to speak that tongue nonsensical. It should also be noted, if anyone decides to bother to read the link Scylla referenced (originally posted by **rjung** , that it actually says only that no agents were posted to Afghanistan who could speak Arabic, not that they were actively removed. Not that reading comprehension means anything in the Pit, but I just thought I’d point that out. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/526 "2003-11-29T23:50:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Just wanted to give thanks, **pantom,** for digging up those links again. I can’t fucking _believe_ how this information is floating around in the public ether, and the Limbaugh-listening Dittohead Bushistas keep crowing “Clinton didn’t do anything against terrorism!” even though the contradictory evidence is **right there.** :rolleyes: > > I swear, it’s stuff like this that remind me why I could never vote Republican – you’d have to get a fucking lobotomy first before you can be dumb enough to swallow the GOP’s garbage. The Democrats might be ineffectual, but they don’t assume I’m an idiot. \*\* So umm, who’s saying it? Nobody in this thread, I think. I looked. I haven’t seen Coulter doing it. I don’t recall Limbaugh doing it either. Nor do I recall anything from the GOP So where are these Limbaugh-listening Dittohead Bushistas who are saying “Clinton didn’t do anything about terrorism?” There must be an awful lot of them if that’s why you never vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/527 "2003-11-29T23:56:46Z")
I give up. I can’t read English. I can barely write it too, obviously. I’m going away now. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/528 "2003-11-30T00:04:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\* I’m really curious to know whether you would have supported actions by either administration in Afghanistan before September 2001. \*\* I really don’t now, but I know it would depend a great deal on what “actions” means, and according to what I’ve read, the sort of actions Clark was proposing weren’t exactly war, more covert than that. In which case, I wouldn’t have had an opinion because I would have lacked the information to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/529 "2003-11-30T00:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*So umm, who’s saying it? Nobody in this thread, I think. I looked. I haven’t seen Coulter doing it. I don’t recall Limbaugh doing it either. Nor do I recall anything from the GOP > > So where are these Limbaugh-listening Dittohead Bushistas who are saying “Clinton didn’t do anything about terrorism?” > > There must be an awful lot of them if that’s why you never vote Republican. \*\* Well, first, there’s the people [who started this chain letter](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm). I doubt they’re Democrats. Then there’s **cedric45** , who said > [@](#): > > Certainly this came about because Clinton’s ineffectiveness at doing anything emboldened the terror mongers. “Hey, nothing happened after we killed those sailors in Yemen, let’s go for a bunch of civilians on their own soil!” on page 8 of this thread. Then Al Franken (I know you don’t trust him, but bear with me) quotes (or claims to quote, if you wish to put it that way) a _Washington Post_ article from October 7 2001, entitled “Conservatives Sound Refrain: It’s Clinton’s Fault,” which apparently includes quotes like: “We had Bill Clinton backing off, letting the Taliban go, over and over again.” - Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, (R - CA) and “[Clinton is as fault because of his] pathetically weak, ineffective ability to focus and stay focused.” - Newt Gingrich This section also says that Rush Limbaugh did blame Clinton, but the exact quote is not included, so I couldn’t say for sure. It also repeats Sean Hannity’s assertion from his book that the Clinton Administration was offered bin Laden by Sudan, but ws turned down. That certainly sounds like it fits the bill. (However, Franken goes on to assert that a man named Mansoor Ijaz was the sole source for this claim, offering himself as a middleman, someone Franken says had ulterior motives for claiming that such a deal was available, and that when government sources tried to follow up directly with Sudan and through other channels, they found that there was no such offer. Again, I dunno if this is true or not, but this has been claimed a couple of times in this thread, and I at least wanted to toss it in.) Now, you might technically say that few of these quotes actually claim that Clinton did NOTHING, only that he did what he did poorly. But I decided to take your query in the spirit in which I believe it was intended. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/530 "2003-11-30T00:39:13Z")
As **Pantom** falls victim to the dreaded **Scylla** rope-a-dope. Throwing facts and cites at him is like lobbing popcorn balls at a Sherman tank. They simply bounce off. But I think I begin to understand. Its not about facts. Its about truth. **Scylla** knows the truth, he need not make reference to facts unless those facts are friendly. Facts that are not friendly are perfidious lies. People who rely on such facts are, well, us. It is the faith that surpasseth all understanding. And reason, of course. Not to mention argument. Al Franken is a perfidious liar. Unlike other liars, Franken offers specifics. Names, dates, places, documents. Kind of thing us PL’s (perfidious liars) regard, mistakenly, as the very core of debate. Now comes the esteemed **Stoid** , her delicate little fingers worn to nubbins, laying out the case Mr. Franken makes. Dates, places, names, documents. Perfect, fat targets for blistering refutation. Unless, of course, they _are_ facts. A dishonest debater, confronted with facts he cannot refute, will attack the messenger, as noted. Sound familiar? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/531 "2003-11-30T00:47:07Z")
Dishonest debater, **elucidator**? Pot, kettle, black, and all. You admit that you haven’t read AF’s um, book, but you think it’s true because **Stoid** said so. Strong arguement, that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/532 "2003-11-30T00:56:09Z")
Yet another pitiful “I will attack the messenger” proponent, now that is dishonest. So **milroyj** ’s point is… well I suppose there was a point there but it is lost in a fallacy, so much for a counterpoint. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/533 "2003-11-30T00:57:03Z")
Not so. I don’t know if its true. I’m not worried about it. I entirely respect the intellligence and probity of Ms. **Stoid** more than any other pornographer I have known. I merely point out that Mr. Franken, if he _is_ lying, has made himself entirely vulnerable by publishing the specifics. If he is full of shit, it won’t take you or friend **Scylla** more than a few minutes to tear him to shreds. **Stoid** did half the work for you, laying it out, making it available. If, given all that, you cannot refute his facts, well, you’re buggered, aren’t you, buckaroo? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/534 "2003-11-30T01:06:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Throwing facts and cites at him is like lobbing popcorn balls at a Sherman tank. They simply bounce off. **elucidator** : I disagree, amigo. A popcorn ball would likely _stick_ to a tank, thereby providing a tasty and/or fortifying snack. Cites from the opposition give **Scylla** power. **Scylla** , I like you. It’s difficult to _not_ like you. But for me, at least, this thread has established your likeness to a rhetorical Jack Dawkins: you dodge around, snatching suitable ideas from various places. You have fawning minions. Only, _your_ Fagin is Clarence Darrow. It’s clear, though, that your purpose on this Board is largely onanistic; I read your recent post in **Esprix** ’s Pitting – “neener neener, mine’s longer than yours” – and it became immediately evident what a creepy little attention-whore you are. I suspect, however, many others are also growing bored with your _lodestar lust_. I reckon before too long, you may just find yourself **handily** banished from political discourse, altogether. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/535 "2003-11-30T01:29:12Z")
Heaven forfend! I merely state my case. **Scylla** embodies my case, he is my case made manifest! I admit it would be refreshing to engage in honest discourse with a conservative with integrity who respects my opinions enough to engage them. But such as Barry Goldwater are in short supply these days. And we are the poorer for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/536 "2003-11-30T02:32:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **You never seem to consider how ridiculous you sound. […] You are just flailing around.** I was just thinking the same about you. Anyway, my post got eaten, so in lieu of retyping everything all over again, I’ll just ask which approach is the most “blindly partisan”: the guy who says 9-11 was a unique event that could not have been anticipated by any president and concludes that neither Clinton nor Bush should be considered “at fault,” or the guy who seeks to exploit 9-11 by suggesting his guy could have prevented it. Meanwhile, read the [Time article](http://www.legalright.com/Page1.htm) that is at the root of much of this discussion. It’s a fascinating story of opportunities missed, mostly due to bureacratic nibbling. Richard Clarke may well be a priescent genius, but self-serving statements to the side, somehow I doubt they would have had much better luck in swiftly working past the entrenched fiefdoms that populate the federal government. Indeed, the article indicates that the principal holdout after Bush’s early-spring order to eliminate al-Quaeda was CIA chief George Tenet, a Clinton holdover. And of course, all of that ignores the fact that Bush officials dispute the characterization that they were presented a comprehensive, neatly packaged plan by Clarke, and instead were dealing with unrelated, unimplemented ideas, some of which they simply implemented earlier than others. Unless you’re predisposed to only believe good things about the Clinton administration and bad things about the Bushies, the issue simply isn’t clear-cut. _Both_ administrations, and predecessor administrations, are at fault. It is equally stupid to blame Clinton or Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/537 "2003-11-30T03:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Al Franken is a perfidious liar. Unlike other liars, Franken offers specifics. Names, dates, places, documents. Kind of thing us PL’s (perfidious liars) regard, mistakenly, as the very core of debate…Perfect, fat targets for blistering refutation. Unless, of course, they are facts. > \*\* Yes, about that, I’m honestly curious about what Franken is saying in his book, and found an excerpt. Now look at this: > [@](#): > > God began our conversation by clearing something up. Some of George W. Bush’s friends say that Bush believes God called him to be president during these times of trial. But God told me that He/She/It had actually chosen Al Gore by making sure that Gore won the popular vote and, God thought, the electoral college. “THAT WORKED FOR EVERYONE ELSE,” God said. > > “What about Tilden?” I asked, referring to the 1876 debacle. > > “QUIET!” God snapped. God was angry. > > God said that after 9/11, George W. Bush squandered a unique moment of national unity. That instead of rallying the country around a program of mutual purpose and sacrifice, Bush cynically used the tragedy to solidify his political power and pursue an agenda that panders to his base and serves the interests of his corporate backers. > > God told me that Bush squandered a $4.6 trillion surplus and is plunging us into deficits as far as God can see. And that Bush squandered another surplus. The surplus of goodwill from the rest of the world that he had inherited from Bill Clinton. > > And this was pissing God off. You can’t be serious. We’d be here until Valentine’s Day, and that’s just the intro. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/538 "2003-11-30T03:33:33Z")
The blindly partisan one is the one that ignores the facts, especially when they don’t fit his worldview. (“exploit” 9/11? Why yes, that’s precisely what Team Bush has been doing since that very day. Sickening, isn’t it?) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/539 "2003-11-30T03:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*You can’t be serious. We’d be here until Valentine’s Day, and that’s just the intro. \*\* Sad thing is, they are serious. Franken wrote it, Stoid believes it, and that’s good enough for old elucidator. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/540 "2003-11-30T03:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > I’ll just ask which approach is the most “blindly partisan”: the guy who says 9-11 was a unique event that could not have been anticipated by any president and concludes that neither Clinton nor Bush should be considered “at fault,” or the guy who seeks to exploit 9-11 by suggesting his guy could have prevented it. The first position is ridiculous. There’s oodles and oodles of evidence showing that 9/11 _could_ and possibly _should_ have been discovered in time to prevent it. The second statement is remarkable in that it demonstrates _your_ partisanship on this issue. Where the heck were you to condemn the guy who started this Clinton/Bush hijack by making the claim that “this came about because Clinton’s ineffectiveness at doing anything emboldened the terror mongers. ‘Hey, nothing happened after we killed those sailors in Yemen, let’s go for a bunch of civilians on their own soil!’” It’s that blind spot there that makes me take the charge of partisanship somewhat less than entirely seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=28)