# The giant Scylla Thanksgiving crow eating thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049 "2003-11-24T22:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/541 "2003-11-30T03:58:12Z")
Also, Minty, remember that’s the ultimate copout argument around here: “Oh, you’re partisan. Your arguments, cites, logic, and evidence are obviously worthless. Bye!” The thing that cracks me up about it is how transparent it is. What audience are these guys playing to? ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/542 "2003-11-30T04:35:11Z")
This blather about a fundamentally untestable point irks me. We don’t know how well Clinton or Gore would have handled the data pointing to 9/11. We don’t know foreign policy would have taken a different tact under a Democrat – after the beating they took in Kosovo, they probably were reluctant to be seen with their thumbs in too many pots. Remember the “winning” foreign policy strategy on which Bush campaigned? Get us out of sticky situations, overwhelming force, clear exit strategies, no nation building. So, yeah, anti-terrorism was a big deal to Clinton. It presumably would have been so for Gore. But the amount that he would have been able to mobilize on it would have been largely dependent on Congress and yes, on public opinion. Even though Bush “doesn’t look at polls” I can guarantee you he is not pursuing policies which alienate him from the voters. All pols do the same, and Gore would have had to move on those. So this debate is just partisan masturbation. What we can look at is what _did_ happen. Can we take a nonpartisan look at our policy, decision, and intelligence pre-9/11 and decide if indeed it was preventable? This is ultimately necessary in order to illuminate missteps (whether Clinton’s, Bush’s, Tenet’s, Congress’s, or Jim the Subway Sandwich Artist’s) and prevent future misstakes. All that understanding history so we don’t repeat it stuff. And here is where both sides should be angry. And to some extent, both sides are. Bush has sat on a lot of pre-9/11 intelligence, refusing to release it to Congress. The Congressional investigation (which would be Republican dominated) has not gotten off of the ground. I don’t like to usually cite sites like [these](http://www.bushoccupation.com/welcolumn.html), but the quotes seem well documented, complete and surprisingly non-biased. I’m not necessarily saying Bush or any of his legion is to blame. But we will never know until there is an investigation. This stonewalling is now perhaps the ugliest legacy Bush will leave the country – the idea that any information (even the attendees of a meetings with Cheney made to determine our energy policy) can be deemed vital to national security and classified nearly indefinitely. It significantly weakens one of the main strengths of our government – transparency – and may open the door to future corruption, cronyism, misbehavior, and most of all, the repetition of tragic mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/543 "2003-11-30T04:43:11Z")
That’s an interesting excerpt **Tee**. You know, the usual courtesy is to supply links. Allow me to demonstrate… [http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001887.php](http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001887.php) has several such excerpts. It would appear that, in your haste to smite the PL’s, you trimmed a bit. In its entirety, it becomes clear that Mr. Franken is making fun of the notion of being chosen by God. As some misguided souls have posited regarding GeeDubya. (It would certainly explain the sudden conversion of 10,000 Palm Beach Jews to Buchanan’s candidacy. But I digress…) This sort of thing is called “self-deprecating” humor. Clearly, Mr. Franken does not seriously pretend that he is chosen by God to write this book. He is mocking such self-glorifying pretension. It is, of course, possible that this is an entirely honest mistake. Or that it is a rather clumsy attempt to shade the narrative in a different light than was intended by the author. That decision I leave to the Gentle Reader. Of course, this bit of whimsey has no bearing whatsoever on the substantive allegations Mr. Franken makes, and the factual reliability thereof. Again, I insist that I make no judgement thereof, despite **milroyj** ’s assertion than his meager array of talents include mind-reading. (Despite what I say I’m thinking, he knows what I’m _really_ thinking. Why he is wasting his time here when he could be winning the World Series of Poker eludes me. Perhaps it is only my mind that he has direct access to…) It seems simple enough, yet it turns out to be like explaining quantum mechanics to my dog. Mr. Franken has made certain specific allegations, with specific facts and documentation. You may dislike Mr. Franken, and, 'struth, he gets on my nerves a bit as well. But if you are to call him a PL, and, more importantly, claim to have proven some point thereby, you should be willing to prove it. He has certainly made it easy for you, and **Stoid** went to the effort to outline them for you. If, after all this assistance, you cannot prove him false, your case is weak. Surely this is obvioius to the meanest intelligence? And if all you can do is stamp your little foot and swear he is a liar, but will not make the merest effort to prove it, your allegations are nothing more than posturing drivel. Now, if you wish to say “I don’t like Al Franken, and I distrust his motives, but am too lazy and/or too stupid to prove it” you’ll get no argument from me for this bracing display of candor. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/544 "2003-11-30T05:36:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Yeah it is ugly, but I’m still waiting for an alternative plan that doesn’t involve sitting on our ass until somebody turns Cincinatti into a cinder, and then doing something. > \*\* The lies and bullshit from **Scylla** just don’t stop. You’ve just been presented evidence that “sitting on our ass until somebody turns Cincinatti into a cinder” is _exactly_ what Bush’s policy was pre-9/11. And what did the post-9/11 “doing something” involve? Mostly show. A half-assed campaign in Afganistan, and now Iraq. Where’s Osama? WTF did Saddam have to do with 9/11? Where’re the WMD’s? Why has “doing something” seemed to have _increased_ terrorism? Why do you think that’s a sensible result? I was perfectly correct when I predicted you’d be spouting the Administration’s latest bullshit come November, wasn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/545 "2003-11-30T05:39:59Z")
I’d written a rather longish post explaining why I wanted to thank people such as **elucidator, Mr Svilensha, Elvis1, minty green, Diogenes, stoid** and **rjung** , but apparently it became hamster fuel. Inspiration being what it is, and my memory not being what it was, suffice it to say that it is people like you that are largely responsible for my falling in love with your country over three decades ago. May your favorite deity – IPU included of course – continue to give you the same resolve and unity of purpose you have all shown so far. Because the day Americans voices such as yours become scarce, or worse, extinct, is the day that that love affair comes to an end. Sad to say it is already on very shaky grounds – and again, if I haven’t yet filed for divorce, it is because of people like you and the very things you have so eloquently and passionately spoken of throughout this thread. Keep beating them with the Truth Stick. And if you ever think it’s not worth it, that no one listens, allow me to suggest you go back and read the first couple of pages in this thread to gather your strenght. Not all Americans that genuinely and naively bought into The Big Lie are members of The Bush Apologetic Brigade. That said, you’re all doing a splendid job. Even this middle-aged cynic needs a shot of hope now and again. Like on days when you read than seven of your own countrymen fell prey to this madness. Like today for instance. For giving me one, and then some…I thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/546 "2003-11-30T05:44:10Z")
You are a PL! It is impossible for you to be "perfectly"correct, since perfection is impossible. Hence, at least part of your statement is incorrect, it is therefore proven beyond question that all of your statement is a lie! Plus the one you are just about to make! Don’t deny you were about to make a statement, we know what you’re thinking! And furthermore, it isn’t the “latest bullshit”! It is precisely the _same_ bullshit…excuse, shining examples of truth…that has been spouted…errrr, that is “publicly released”…for months! PL! PL! (You know, this is kinda easy once you get the hang of it…) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/547 "2003-11-30T05:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > \*\*…For giving me one, and then some…I thank you all… \*\* Por nada, hermano. Venceremos! No Pasaran! ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/548 "2003-11-30T05:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elucidator_ > \*\*You are a PL! It is impossible for you to be "perfectly"correct, since perfection is impossible. Hence, at least part of your statement is incorrect, it is therefore proven beyond question that all of your statement is a lie! Plus the one you are just about to make! Don’t deny you were about to make a statement, we know what you’re thinking! > > And furthermore, it isn’t the “latest bullshit”! It is precisely the same bullshit…excuse, shining examples of truth…that has been spouted…errrr, that is “publicly released”…for months! PL! PL!\*\* You’re onto me **elucidator**. Waah! I want my mommy! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/549 "2003-11-30T05:55:01Z")
“Nothing like 9/11 happened on Clinton’s watch.” Implied necessary premise to the argument: because the first truck bomb in the WTC was either not big enough or in the wrong place. Dumb luck saves the Arkansas superman – again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/550 "2003-11-30T06:01:30Z")
{{{{{RedFury}}}}} Awwwwww… And all this time I thought I was just a contrary asshole. Thanks for your kind words, Red. I will do my best to continue to piss in Bush’s cornflakes. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/551 "2003-11-30T06:02:16Z")
Yep, dumb luck. As opposed to dumb policy. I’ll take the former over the latter any day, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/552 "2003-11-30T06:03:43Z")
(Just an aside. This thread currently has 552 posts, making it the second longest Pit thread ever. The longest one, [His4Ever, JerseyDiamond and Joe\_Cool are hypocrites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146632), has 561. So this thread’ll very soon overtake it, and become the longest. And just as a general observation, Pit threads this long are often followed soon after by the demise (as posters) of either the Pittor or the Pittee.) ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/553 "2003-11-30T06:11:18Z")
**luc** , I’m making the large assumption that the right wing Evangelicals would be the ones who think Bush was chosen by God. Do you know, though, that he’s actually in trouble with these guys over simply saying that he thinks Christians and Moslems worship the same God? > [@](#): > > It is not often that U.S. President George W. Bush finds himself in trouble with his evangelical Christian base…“Freedom,” he said, “is not America’s gift to the world. It’s much greater than that, of course. And I believe we [Muslims and Christians] worship the same God.” > The latter, of course, was the remark that infuriated the American Christian right, who berated Mr. Bush for venturing into the forbidden thickets of theology. Hastening to set the record straight on God, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention said that Mr. Bush was “simply mistaken.” The president of the National Association of Evangelicals added, “The Christian God encourages freedom, love, forgiveness, prosperity and health. The Muslim god appears to value the opposite.” link: [http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?ed20031130a1.htm](http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?ed20031130a1.htm) So you see, Bush is actually a reasonable centrist. No shit. I swear, you simply can’t make this stuff up. Nobody would believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/554 "2003-11-30T06:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pantom \* > **luc, I’m making the large assumption that the right wing Evangelicals would be the ones who think Bush was chosen by God.** No, it’s the chimp himself who thinks he’s been [chosen by God](http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020909/abattle.html): > [@](#): > > It is tempting to believe that Bush rose to the occasion last September because flag and country demanded it. But with the passage of a year, and a chance to watch the President in action at home and overseas, it’s harder to get away from the idea that Bush didn’t rise to meet history but that history fell to meet him. In one horrifying two-hour period, the world shuddered and conformed to his way of thinking: there was good and there was evil, and it wasn’t hard to tell the difference. If Bush didn’t know much about foreign policy, that hardly mattered, and it may have helped him. Privately, Bush even talked of being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment, and perhaps he was. But it was also, as one of his advisers told Time, “one of history’s rare unnuanced days.” ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/555 "2003-11-30T06:33:07Z")
Not going to comment, as much would depend on the context in which he made said remark. One hopes it was only the emotion of the moment. I’m going to bed now. Good thing I have a coupla Johnnie Walkers and some cabernet to smooth my way to slumberland… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/556 "2003-11-30T06:34:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* I merely point out that Mr. Franken, if he is lying, has made himself entirely vulnerable by publishing the specifics. If he is full of shit, it won’t take you or friend **Scylla** more than a few minutes to tear him to shreds. **Stoid** did half the work for you, laying it out, making it available._\* Franken is being accused of selective perception and adverse selection which invalidate the conclusions he infers. Elucidator, an authority on a book he hasn’t read, rebutting arguments that haven’t been made. Portrait of a man in his zone. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/557 "2003-11-30T06:38:04Z")
And _you_ are being accused of hand waving, and a complete and utter inability to refute fact. Wanker. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/558 "2003-11-30T06:43:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*The blindly partisan one is the one that ignores the facts, especially when they don’t fit his worldview. \*\* I agree. So have you read any of Coulter’s books, or just Franken’s? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/559 "2003-11-30T06:56:34Z")
I’ve read one of Coulter’s and two of Franken’s. You? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049/560 "2003-11-30T07:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*And _you_ are being accused of hand waving…, \*\* Hand waving? Ooooooo. I guess I’m in trouble. > [@](#): > > …and a complete and utter inability to refute fact. Sad. I know. It’s why I’ll never make a good Democrat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giant-scylla-thanksgiving-crow-eating-thread/215049.md?page=29)