# The Gilded Age on HBO Max (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, hbomax-wb-dc\ **Created:** [January 31, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668 "2022-01-31T02:38:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/41 "2022-03-11T16:14:20Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Marian, the ostensible protagonist, is one of the least interesting (and most poorly acted) roles; Marian is really the bridge between the Van Rhijns and the outcasts (Russells, Mrs. Chamberlain, her love tryst with Raikes) at this point. Without her, there is no reason for Agnes to even acknowledge those she considers beneath her. > [@Nonsuch](#): > > Peggy Scott’s arc is also interesting and doesn’t feel like something I saw done better on _Downton._ Agreed, but I also think it’s somewhat ludicrous that hardly anyone from the upstairs crowd seems to be racist against her. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/42 "2022-03-11T16:24:19Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Agreed, but I also think it’s somewhat ludicrous that hardly anyone from the upstairs crowd seems to be racist against her. Like on _Downton,_ there’s the “good” upper class people (the main characters) and the “bad” ones (everyone else). Fellowes would rather be anachronistic than make his characters too unpalatable to modern viewers. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/43 "2022-03-11T16:40:07Z")
I’m enjoying this as a slightly trashy treat, which, let’s be honest with ourselves, is the same for Downton. I can’t quite help myself from comparing the cast and story arc - the quick tongued older dowager, the evil servant. And I’m not yet connecting with the downstairs characters. But at least there’s no annoying ‘Bates’ terrible secret’ storyline to drive us all crazy with boredom. However, I’m already dreading the ‘Evil Oskar seduces the Russell daughter’ story that awaits us. It’s so transparent, he’s even got a dark moustache to twirl in his fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/44 "2022-03-11T17:24:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > … > > > [@Nonsuch](#): > > > > Peggy Scott’s arc is also interesting and doesn’t feel like something I saw done better on _Downton._ > > Agreed, but I also think it’s somewhat ludicrous that hardly anyone from the upstairs crowd seems to be racist against her. I’m also surprised her boss hasn’t insisted she write under a pseudonym. Only a matter of time before one of her stories embarrasses Mrs. van Rhijn. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/45 "2022-03-11T17:29:12Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > However, I’m already dreading the ‘Evil Oskar seduces the Russell daughter’ story that awaits us. It’s so transparent, he’s even got a dark moustache to twirl in his fingers. Agnes will be more mad about that than Oskar screwing the Russell’s maid! That will make it a bit more tolerable. Although I can’t wait for a twist that sees Raikes attempting to court Gladys Russell. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/46 "2022-03-11T17:46:38Z")
So is Raikes a rake (or even a cad and/or a bounder), or is he genuinely sincere in his love for Marian? I keep changing my mind. _Poll ([view on site](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/46))_ ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/47 "2022-03-11T18:16:37Z")
I’ve long thought that Fellowes can’t do subtlety… so the name is probably a big giveaway. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/48 "2022-03-11T18:55:56Z")
Dammit, I had no idea that the Raikes plotline could even be considered some sort of ugly twist. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/49 "2022-03-11T19:19:51Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I’m enjoying this as a slightly trashy treat, which, let’s be honest with ourselves, is the same for Downton. > > I can’t quite help myself from comparing the cast and story arc - the quick tongued older dowager, the evil servant. And I’m not yet connecting with the downstairs characters. But at least there’s no annoying ‘Bates’ terrible secret’ storyline to drive us all crazy with boredom. > > However, I’m already dreading the ‘Evil Oskar seduces the Russell daughter’ story that awaits us. It’s so transparent, he’s even got a dark moustache to twirl in his fingers. Is Oscar van Rhijn at all interested in seducing Gladys Russell? I thought his interest in her is as a wealthy but naïve wife who can serve as a beard for his relationship with John Adams. And the upstairs/downstairs plot elements that are similar to Downton Abbey are also present in Gosford Park, which Julian Fellowes also wrote. Still wondering about Raikes; he does seem to be a social climber but in a group so obsessed with status, can we blame him? So perhaps his interest in Marian is genuine? ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/50 "2022-03-11T20:10:39Z")
Pretty much every character is warning Marian that Raikes is on the make, which makes me pretty certain he’ll turn out to be genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/51 "2022-03-11T21:13:15Z")
My wife and I are enjoying the show as a weekly diversion. Pretty much in agreement with the consensus that it’s a pale imitation of Downton but thoroughly enjoyable pulp. That said, I think my interest in Downton as I was watching the first season was pretty tepid, so perhaps this show simply needs to till the earth a bit. We’ll see if it trends towards the understated like Downton or if it goes full Game of Thrones in it’s dramatic twists. My biggest criticism is Cynthia Nixon. Holy shit is she miscast. All I can see is Sex and the City doing cosplay and her acting has always been terrible. Ick. I was also a bit worried that this show was going to spend every episode reminding us how horribly racist 19th century America was. I’m glad that they’ve turned Ms. Scott into an actual three dimensional character and we’re not being beaten over the head with injustices. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/52 "2022-03-11T21:32:45Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Pretty much every character is warning Marian that Raikes is on the make, which makes me pretty certain he’ll turn out to be genuine. Who has warned her of that other than her snooty older aunt? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/53 "2022-03-11T23:19:14Z")
Peggy also told Marian to be cautious with him ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/54 "2022-03-12T00:02:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > [@Nonsuch](#): > > > > Peggy Scott’s arc is also interesting and doesn’t feel like something I saw done better on _Downton._ > > Agreed, but I also think it’s somewhat ludicrous that hardly anyone from the upstairs crowd seems to be racist against her. The van Rhijn sisters had more exposure to African-Americans in their childhood - their father was a patron of the school that Peggy graduated from and the sisters accompanied him to events there. The fact that their father supported such a school may have meant that the sisters were brought up with a lesser degree of disdain towards African-Americans - that they could be educated to improve their prospects in life. Agnes also seems to have some degree of pride in Peggy as a product of her father’s generosity. The other upstairs crowd tolerates Peggy when she is accompanying Marion (it would be rude to Marion and through her to Agnes otherwise), but the only one who acknowledges as anything besides a servant her is Mrs. Chamberlain at Bloomingdale’s, where she rescues Peggy from being accosted by the store staff - but Mrs. Chamberlain is an outcast herself. I think a more typical reaction from the upper crust was when Peggy and her father were talking near the park and a white couple stopped walking until they deferentially cleared off the sidewalk. And of course there is the implicit bias of Marion assuming Peggy’s family was poor and her shock that they lived in a fine house and had a servant (and really, once she saw the house couldn’t she have ditched the bag of old shoes?). ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/55 "2022-03-12T00:29:10Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Who has warned her of that other than her snooty older aunt? Several characters have made offhand comments about Raikes’ ascendance in the social world with a raised eyebrow. While they didn’t outright caution her against him, the implication is that he’s a climber and he’s either going to on to better things or he’s gaming the system somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/56 "2022-03-12T01:28:04Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > The other upstairs crowd tolerates Peggy when she is accompanying Marion (it would be rude to Marion and through her to Agnes otherwise), but the only one who acknowledges as anything besides a servant her is Mrs. Chamberlain at Bloomingdale’s, where she rescues Peggy from being accosted by the store staff - but Mrs. Chamberlain is an outcast herself. Clara Barton was willing to accept Miss Scott’s interest in the Red Cross, perhaps hoping to get support from the black community. (And Clara Barton was also willing to accept Mrs Chamberlain’s contributions, so perhaps they’re portraying her as more progressive than most.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/57 "2022-03-12T05:41:39Z")
**Nonsuch** wrote, “Pretty much every character is warning Marian that Raikes is on the make,” but I think that’s a pretty big overstatement. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/58 "2022-03-14T04:38:05Z")
Peggy doesn’t seem to trust Raikes, it seems to me, and Mrs. Chamberlain is delivering warnings ostensibly to the two of them that are plainly directed at Marian. The only one who seems at all enthusiastic about it is Ada, and I feel that’s mostly because she can’t bear the thought of cynical Agnes being right. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/59 "2022-03-14T08:28:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Is Oscar van Rhijn at all interested in seducing Gladys Russell? I thought his interest in her is as a wealthy but naïve wife who can serve as a beard for his relationship with John Adams. Absolutely, that’s what I meant by ‘seducing’ - not because he fancies her, but because he wants to her to fall in love with him. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And the upstairs/downstairs plot elements that are similar to Downton Abbey are also present in Gosford Park, which Julian Fellowes also wrote. To be fair, Gosford Park is several notches a better script than either Downton or Gilded. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668/60 "2022-03-14T09:03:55Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > And the upstairs/downstairs plot elements that are similar to Downton Abbey are also present in Gosford Park, which Julian Fellowes also wrote. > > To be fair, Gosford Park is several notches a better script than either Downton or Gilded. To also be fair, a theatrical movie is a different beast from a television series like _The Gilded Age_ that was written for a 9-episode series spanning nearly that number of hours, and was probably intentionally left open-ended in case it was renewed for another season (which, happily, it was). _Downton_ ran for six seasons as a continuing story. It’s just a different art form. And speaking of movies vs TV, I was really impressed with the production values of _The Gilded Age_. Beautifully authentic sets, apparently no expense spared in recreating the ambience of that era, and truly gorgeous cinematography. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gilded-age-on-hbo-max-open-spoilers/958668.md?page=4)