# The GIVE Act (HR 1388): Expand opportunities to serve, or create Obama's Brownshirts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741 "2009-03-17T13:12:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/41 "2009-03-28T23:55:39Z")
I just spent some time actually reading this bill, and I don’t think the OP characterizes the bill correctly: > [@Fear Itself](#): > > But in reading a summary of the bill, I don’t see anything that makes service mandatory, and it certainly doesn’t create child slavery, which is how it is being characterized in the conservative echo chamber. My first reply in this thread came after I read the same summary. But sometimes the devil really is in the details. There are several references to _mandatory_ service in the text of the [bill itself](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1388): > [@](#): > > ‘SEC. 120. INNOVATIVE DEMONSTRATION SERVICE-LEARNING PROGRAMS AND RESEARCH. > > … > > (3) YOUTH ENGAGEMENT ZONE PROGRAM- The term ‘youth engagement zone program’ means a service learning program in which members of an eligible partnership described in paragraph (4) collaborate to provide coordinated school-based or community-based service learning opportunities, to address a specific community challenge, for an increasing percentage of out-of-school youth and secondary school students served by local educational agencies where– > [ul] > li not less than 90 percent of the students participate in service-learning activities as part of the program; or[/li]li service-learning is a mandatory part of the curriculum in all of the secondary schools served by the local educational agency.\*\*[/li][/ul] If you read the text in detail, ‘service-learning’ just means ‘service’, although with perhaps some extra classroom time to reinforce the idea of ‘service’. Local enterprises will be able to form ‘partnerships’ with the schools, and the school will provide the kids for the organization to use to carry out community improvement activities. Also, other text in the section says that individual school can NOT opt out. If a school district goes for the funds in the program, every child in every school in the district must engage in ‘service-learning’. In addition, Section 6104 describes the duties of the commission established to evaluate and monitor the project: > [@](#): > > SEC. 6104. DUTIES. > > ``` > (a) General Purpose- The purpose of the Commission is to gather and analyze information in order to make recommendations to Congress to-- > > (1) improve the ability of individuals in the United States to serve others and, by doing so, to enhance our Nation and the global community; > > ``` > > … > > ``` > (6) Whether a workable, fair, and reasonable **mandatory service requirement for all able young people** could be developed, and how such a requirement could be implemented in a manner that would strengthen the social fabric of the Nation and overcome civic challenges by bringing together people from diverse economic, ethnic, and educational backgrounds. > > ``` So, there ARE in fact two references to mandatory service in the bill - one which actually demands mandatory service for all children in school districts taking part in the Youth Engagement Zone program (unless they can convince 90% of the kids to do it voluntarily), and one which directs the commission to investigate ways to make public service mandatory for every youth in America. Still nothing to worry about? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/42 "2009-03-29T00:54:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So, there ARE in fact two references to mandatory service in the bill - one which actually demands mandatory service for all children in school districts taking part in the Youth Engagement Zone program (unless they can convince 90% of the kids to do it voluntarily), and one which directs the commission to investigate ways to make public service mandatory for every youth in America. > > Still nothing to worry about? No more than Mike Harris’ 40 hours of mandatory community service for high schoolers in Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/43 "2009-03-29T03:29:28Z")
Which was equally wrong. I think you’ve brought this up before, and I fail to see what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/44 "2009-03-29T03:55:50Z")
A contingent of fanatical militant teenage Canadians, within striking distance of Duluth? Yeah, I can see what’s wrong with that… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/45 "2009-03-29T04:14:50Z")
I haven’t been to high school in about thirty-five years, but it’s my understanding that a service requirement for graduation is more the rule than the exception these days. Anybody know if I’m on the wrong track, here? > [@That thing Sam Stone excerpted](#): > > (6) Whether a workable, fair, and reasonable **mandatory service requirement for all able young people** could be developed, and how such a requirement could be implemented in a manner that would strengthen the social fabric of the Nation and overcome civic challenges by bringing together people from diverse economic, ethnic, and educational backgrounds. **Sam Stone** , why did you feel it more necessary to bold **mandatory service requirement for all able young people** , but “workable, fair, and reasonable” didn’t seem to be worthy of calling to anyone’s attention? I’m going to speculate that IYHO, “mandatory” makes it automatically _un_workable, _un_fair and _un_reasonable. If that is, in fact, the case, then the answer to “whether” it can be developed will be “no”, and nothing will come of it. In the meantime, since this is entirely about a purely domestic public policy matter, with no global economic ramifications, and no impact on foreign policy, do you suppose you could mind your own business and concentrate your energies on solving the dreadful injustice of Ontario kids being enslaved for forty hours of their lives? We’re adults down here in USALand, and I’m confident that we can face the dangers of having our social fabric strengthened, and our civic challenges overcome without your assistance. We’ll be happy to call you if we find out that we need you. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/46 "2009-03-29T04:46:49Z")
I consider “Workable, fair, and reasonable mandatory service” to be somewhat akin to a 'workable, fair and reasonable military draft". Of a kind, if not in degree. The word ‘mandatory’ sort of spoils all the fun. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/47 "2009-03-29T06:36:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m going to speculate that IYHO, “mandatory” makes it automatically _un_workable, _un_fair and _un_reasonable. If that is, in fact, the case, then the answer to “whether” it can be developed will be “no”, and nothing will come of it. Except that the people _writing this act_ don’t feel that mandatory service is inherently unworkable, unfair and unreasonable, otherwise they wouldn’t feel that mandatory service-learning is workable and reasonable for students whose schools are involved in the program, and they wouldn’t see mandatory service for all able young people as something to be sought. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/48 "2009-03-29T12:31:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Except that the people _writing this act_ don’t feel that mandatory service is inherently unworkable, unfair and unreasonable, otherwise they wouldn’t feel that mandatory service-learning is workable and reasonable for students whose schools are involved in the program, and they wouldn’t see mandatory service for all able young people as something to be sought. So why create a commission and give them the power to determine if it is reasonable or not? If they are so certain that mandatory = reasonable, they would just hard code it into the law. Clearly, there is uncertainty here. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/49 "2009-03-29T12:34:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It is pretty clear that the right wing simply made crap up about Obama wanting a gestapo like force of volunteers. So no, there’s nothing in this bill to threaten the Republic. Nor are there black helicopters conducting recce missions on farmhouses in Montana, nor are there secret symbols written on the back of road signs that tell the Red China Army which way to go, nor does the fact that Yosemite is a UN World Heritage Site mean that our park rangers are going to be replaced by a blue helmeted peacekeeping force. I wonder how much it costs to mothball a fleet of black helicopters for eight years. After all, we all know that only evil liberal/socialist administrations use them… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/50 "2009-03-29T13:23:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m going to speculate that IYHO, “mandatory” makes it automatically _un_workable, _un_fair and _un_reasonable. If that is, in fact, the case, then the answer to “whether” it can be developed will be “no”, and nothing will come of it. The question is who gets to decide what is “workable, fair, and reasonable.” A 17 year old who is about to get drafted into this program might have a different idea of what is fair or reasonable than a 50 year old beaurocrat. It seems to me that in a heterogeneous country like the United States, when it comes to mandatory service, each citizen should be able to decide for himself or herself what is fair or reasonable. With the possible exception of jury duty. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/51 "2009-03-29T13:49:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > With the possible exception of jury duty. And taxes. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/52 "2009-03-29T13:55:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The question is who gets to decide what is “workable, fair, and reasonable.” A 17 year old who is about to get drafted into this program might have a different idea of what is fair or reasonable than a 50 year old beaurocrat. > > It seems to me that in a heterogeneous country like the United States, when it comes to mandatory service, each citizen should be able to decide for himself or herself what is fair or reasonable. With the possible exception of jury duty. That 17 year old probably also has different ideas about how many math credits he should have to take to graduate. The school district I graduated from and the school district where I live now both make community service mandatory for graduation from high school (and have for nearly 20 years). If I’m understanding correctly, the idea here is to add community service to the curricula of schools, just like kids are now required to take a certain amount of English and science. If that’s the case, then the community service is not mandatory unless you want the degree, just like taking those math classes is. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/53 "2009-03-29T14:00:54Z")
I graduated high school in '04 and no form of service learning/community service was required for graduation at my school… ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/54 "2009-03-29T14:02:19Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I graduated high school in '04 and no form of service learning/community service was required for graduation at my school… Okay. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/55 "2009-03-29T14:35:31Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Okay. Hence disputing the point that required community service is mandatory at schools today. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgonzola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e480ec/32.png) [@Gorgonzola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgonzola)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/56 "2009-03-29T14:37:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > In the meantime, since this is entirely about a purely domestic public policy matter, with no global economic ramifications, and no impact on foreign policy, do you suppose you could mind your own business and concentrate your energies on solving the dreadful injustice of Ontario kids being enslaved for forty hours of their lives? > > We’re adults down here in USALand, and I’m confident that we can face the dangers of having our social fabric strengthened, and our civic challenges overcome without your assistance. We’ll be happy to call you if we find out that we need you. Good grief, is this really where the level of “debate” on the Dope has gotten to? “Keep your opinions to yourself unless you live here?” Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/57 "2009-03-29T14:52:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I haven’t been to high school in about thirty-five years, but it’s my understanding that a service requirement for graduation is more the rule than the exception these days. Anybody know if I’m on the wrong track, here? You’re definitely on the right track. While I can’t say it’s a requirement at a majority of schools, requiring community service to graduate is not some crazy unheard of rule. I had to do 40 hours when I graduated in 99 and the requirement had been in place for at least a decade before that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/58 "2009-03-29T15:03:59Z")
> [@Gorgonzola](#): > > Good grief, is this really where the level of “debate” on the Dope has gotten to? “Keep your opinions to yourself unless you live here?” Fascinating. That ain’t it. **kd** was discussing the value and credibility of the opinions being expressed, not the opinionholder’s right to express them. Everybody has a right to state an opinion, yes. Nobody has a right to have theirs taken seriously. See the difference? Just to confirm: Yes, a community service requirement is now pretty typical among US high schools. Perhaps its mandatoriness being established by local boards rather than state or federal ones is what keeps our kids from turned into “brownshirts” as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/59 "2009-03-29T15:06:28Z")
> [@C3](#): > > That 17 year old probably also has different ideas about how many math credits he should have to take to graduate. The school district I graduated from and the school district where I live now both make community service mandatory for graduation from high school (and have for nearly 20 years). If I’m understanding correctly, the idea here is to add community service to the curricula of schools, just like kids are now required to take a certain amount of English and science. If that’s the case, then the community service is not mandatory unless you want the degree, just like taking those math classes is. This is kind of what I wanted to say. I don’t see how this is any different than saying that math is an important and required part of graduating, or history, or gym class. If we value community service and participation enough and feel it benefits us as a society, surely arguments can be made for and against including it in a school curriculum. But, I don’t really see how this is a different situation than any other graduation requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgonzola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e480ec/32.png) [@Gorgonzola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgonzola)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741/60 "2009-03-29T15:25:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That ain’t it. **kd** was discussing the value and credibility of the opinions being expressed, not the opinionholder’s right to express them. > > Everybody has a right to state an opinion, yes. Nobody has a right to have theirs taken seriously. See the difference? Pure bullshit. \*since this is entirely about a purely domestic public policy matter, with no global economic ramifications, and no impact on foreign policy, do you suppose you could mind your own business \* has nothing to do with the credibility of the arguments expressed, and everything to do with _mind yer own ken, Cletus, while we be mindin ours_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-give-act-hr-1388-expand-opportunities-to-serve-or-create-obamas-brownshirts/489741.md?page=4)