# The Giving Tree - Cute story, or sociopathic mirror? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304 "2008-10-24T04:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/41 "2008-10-24T17:26:54Z")
I think the diversity of opinions in this thread make it clear, at least, how compelling it is as a work of art. Few so-called children’s stories would generate this much earnest discussion on an adult message board. I adore Silverstein and have always liked this story, but the book’s personal meaning has become more nuanced as I get older. The tree is my grandmother. She gave everything until there was nothing left, and even now, with nothing, she gives. Is it wrong? Maybe she is sick, maybe she will die because she allowed others to take advantage of her. I spent years trying to get her to choose differently, to give back, and she refused. The one time I dared to call her on it, our only fight ever, she stood up and said, ‘‘This is my right, this is who I am, this is what I was made to do.’’ The tree has no identity outside of sacrifice. But it was always her choice to make. I don’t think the story is meant to communicate one particular moral or viewpoint. It’s just a parable about the way life is. Some people are the giving tree, some people are the boy, and some people, like me, are the silent witnesses struggling to make sense of it all. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/42 "2008-10-24T17:27:07Z")
I remember the story completely horrified me when I first heard it as a kid. I felt awful for the tree and hated the thoughtless boy. I think I heard it at school; I don’t remember talking about it with my parents although I’m sure I did. I do like it now because of how creepy it is. It’s sort of like an old Fairy Tale in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/43 "2008-10-24T17:37:17Z")
Obligatory Perry Bible Fellowship [comic](http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF232-The_Unforgiving_Tree.gif) ---
**Author:** ![miamouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@miamouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miamouse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/44 "2008-10-24T17:38:22Z")
As a kid I liked the story, it was read to us at around eight years old or so. I took away that I shouldn’t take advantage of my mother and appreciate her so she didn’t have to give everything up. There’s a really good book “The Uses of Enchantment” by Bruno Bettleheim which goes into why the old fairy tales are good for children. They learn something from the stories even though it may not be on a fully conscious level. Quite often the stories ease the child’s brain into the reasoning that they will have to go out into the world one day on their own and solve a big problem. Knowing this as a kid can enable you to try to solve your own little problems. My kids like the Silverstein books, although what aspect they are taking away from the Giving Tree I’m not sure, (and I wouldn’t ask because it might embarrass them). I can’t stand the spoon-fed stories and try to avoid reading those to them. There’s no danger in them, but also no reason for a child to think or put themselves in someone else’s perspective. They are over-sanitized. What makes this book a great book is that it can be read with a child or parent viewpoint; or female/male; or human/deity; or humanity/mother earth. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/45 "2008-10-24T17:38:39Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Who is happy? > > All that is left of the tree is a stump. A tree that could have lived longer and enjoyed sunshine and a wonderful life. Cut down to a nub. > > When I read this story 25 years ago, my aunt praised it on self-less love and giving. I looked at her like she was demented and said tht the kid in this was killing the tree and the tree couldn’t say NO to the fookin’ kid. > > I cringe on just how awful this story really is. It is affirming [Co-dependency.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-dependency) > > It is messed up in so many ways it makes me sad. I don’t think the reader should take the material things the tree gives so literally. Yes, in real life, that would be a raping of nature. But the story is a fantastical allegory about 2 “beings” who are dependent on each other, yet are not matched equally in what they can give materially. They are however matched in what they can give immaterially, yet one was unselfish, and the other selfish. They go through phases of playing, give and take, “prodigal son”, and in the end resting and togetherness. The boy, at the end of his life, learns unselfishness. And, the tree in the story isn’t concerned about the real-world concerns a real tree would be (if it we sentient). The tree just wants the boy to love it for what it is. And that’s what happens, no matter what the boy had stripped from it. The book is trying to teach us about unselfishness. This, fortunately has a happy ending. In real life, most don’t… _because_ we are selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/46 "2008-10-24T17:38:52Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Who is happy? > > All that is left of the tree is a stump. A tree that could have lived longer and enjoyed sunshine and a wonderful life. Cut down to a nub. > > When I read this story 25 years ago, my aunt praised it on self-less love and giving. I looked at her like she was demented and said tht the kid in this was killing the tree and the tree couldn’t say NO to the fookin’ kid. > > I cringe on just how awful this story really is. It is affirming [Co-dependency.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-dependency) > > It is messed up in so many ways it makes me sad. The reason I now think that this story works (having read it) is that it raises legitimate questions about whether it is _affirming_ or merely _depicting_ the behavior of the two characters. Are we the reader supposed to approve of these characters? Disapprove? Or simply empathize? Those who hate the book seem to all be interpreting it the same way - that we are intended to approve of their behaviour, and that the behaviour is unhealthy. To my mind, the author simply intends for the reader to _think_ about their behaviour, without drawing any morals himself. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/47 "2008-10-24T17:47:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The reason I now think that this story works (having read it) is that it raises legitimate questions about whether it is _affirming_ or merely _depicting_ the behavior of the two characters. > > Are we the reader supposed to approve of these characters? Disapprove? Or simply empathize? > > Those who hate the book seem to all be interpreting it the same way - that we are intended to approve of their behaviour, and that the behaviour is unhealthy. To my mind, the author simply intends for the reader to _think_ about their behaviour, without drawing any morals himself. Very much agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/48 "2008-10-24T17:49:40Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > All that is left of the tree is a stump. A tree that could have lived longer and enjoyed sunshine and a wonderful life. Cut down to a nub. I recognize that real-life tress die when you cut them down, but this isn’t a real-life tree. Those don’t have feelings. That’s the problem with connecting this story to sociopathy and co-dependency in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/49 "2008-10-24T17:53:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Those who hate the book seem to all be interpreting it the same way - that we are intended to approve of their behaviour, and that the behaviour is unhealthy. To my mind, the author simply intends for the reader to _think_ about their behaviour, without drawing any morals himself. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/50 "2008-10-24T17:53:05Z")
It depicts a hugely dysfunctional relationship. If it were just about a parent’s generosity and self-sacrifice for her kid, the story would have ended before the boy grew up. As it is, the boy becomes an adult, who no longer has his childishness to excuse his utter self-absorption, and yet the tree never says no, never sets boundaries, and lets the boy keep taking until there’s nothing left. A good, giving parent would have thought to teach the child to be a considerate adult somewhere along the line. Instead the tree teaches him it’s perfectly okay for him to walk all over others if he wants to, and that others basically exist to serve his desires. What sh\*tty parenting. Tangentially, wasn’t Silverstein the one who also wrote some fetish poetry, or short prose, or something? I swear I read something like that. Which might explain The Giving Tree, actually, if you visualize it as a (not-really-healthy) Master/slave relationship. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/51 "2008-10-24T17:57:10Z")
Think of it this way. Through the willful unselfishness the tree practiced on the boy, not only did it make the tree temporarily happy, but in the end, its unselfishness made the boy _fashion_ the tree into something that gave the tree what it had been wanting all along. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/52 "2008-10-24T18:04:34Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > It depicts a hugely dysfunctional relationship. If it were just about a parent’s generosity and self-sacrifice for her kid, the story would have ended before the boy grew up. As it is, the boy becomes an adult, who no longer has his childishness to excuse his utter self-absorption, and yet the tree never says no, never sets boundaries, and lets the boy keep taking until there’s nothing left. > > A good, giving parent would have thought to teach the child to be a considerate adult somewhere along the line. Instead the tree teaches him it’s perfectly okay for him to walk all over others if he wants to, and that others basically exist to serve his desires. What sh\*tty parenting. No. The tree knew all along that the boy loved it. It also knew the boy was selfish, but willfully gave, knowing the love was underneath all that. It wasn’t until the tree had nothing left to give, that the boy finally came around. That’s the sacrifice it took, but the tree helped the boy, and at the end, the boy made the tree happy… for ever after. ---
**Author:** ![miamouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@miamouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miamouse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/53 "2008-10-24T18:14:37Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Tangentially, wasn’t Silverstein the one who also wrote some fetish poetry, or short prose, or something? I swear I read something like that. He did lots of different things. I can’t seem to find an online cite for it, but I remember reading that he originally didn’t want his stuff published for children. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/54 "2008-10-24T18:16:17Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > My point? I was asking why you concluded that the tree was being treated even worse. I wasn’t arguing that the tree was being treated any better. > > BTW, even if we were to agree that the tree wasn’t being treated any better, I don’t think it logically follows that its treatment had become “even worse.” I didn’t say that from “it’s not being treated better” it follows that “it’s being treated worse.” Rather, I said “It’s being treated worse hence X, but anyway, as long as its simply not being treated better my original argument for X goes through.” -FrL ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/55 "2008-10-24T18:16:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > A few pages before, though, the line was “and the tree was happy (but not really).” This colors our perception of the tree’s “happiness” throughout the rest of the book, IMO. There’s no reason to think it would “not really” be happy at that point, yet become genuinely “happy” as the book proceeds and the tree is treated even worser. > > -FrL- That seems to be the line that bothers people the most. I think you need to look at it in context. The whole passage is this: > [@](#): > > “I am too old and sad to play,” said the boy. > “I want a boat that will take me far away from here. Can you give me a boat?” > “Cut down my trunk and make a boat.” said the tree. “Then you can sail away … and be happy.” > And so the boy cut down her trunk and made a boat and sailed away. > And the tree was happy … but not really. Folks seem to be reading this as, “The tree is unhappy because she was cut down.” That’s not how I read it. In my view, the tree is happy, because she was still able to give the boy what he wanted. But she’s not _really_ happy, because giving him the boat that he wanted means that he is going farther away from her than he’s ever been. She’s happy, because she’s still providing for him, but not _really_ happy, because she wants to be with him more than anything else in the world. That’s the second-to-last bit in the book. The last section, where he finally comes back, and all she can give him is a place to sit and rest, is when she’s truly happy again, because he is with her. Just look at how happy the tree is every time the boy comes back, and it’s clear that she loves being with him above all else. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/56 "2008-10-24T18:23:23Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > That seems to be the line that bothers people the most. I think you need to look at it in context. The whole passage is this: > > Folks seem to be reading this as, “The tree is unhappy because she was cut down.” That’s not how I read it. In my view, the tree is happy, because she was still able to give the boy what he wanted. But she’s not _really_ happy, because giving him the boat that he wanted means that he is going farther away from her than he’s ever been. She’s happy, because she’s still providing for him, but not _really_ happy, because she wants to be with him more than anything else in the world. > > That’s the second-to-last bit in the book. The last section, where he finally comes back, and all she can give him is a place to sit and rest, is when she’s truly happy again, because he is with her. Just look at how happy the tree is every time the boy comes back, and it’s clear that she loves being with him above all else. Precisely! ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/57 "2008-10-24T18:24:26Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > No. The tree knew all along that the boy loved it. It also knew the boy was selfish, but willfully gave, knowing the love was underneath all that. **It wasn’t until the tree had nothing left to give, that the boy finally came around.** That’s the sacrifice it took, but the tree helped the boy, and at the end, the boy made the tree happy… for ever after. Bolding mine. Well, that’s kind of what I’m saying. The tree made itself a martyr, rather than setting boundaries. The boy didn’t “learn his lesson” until well beyond adulthood, when simply establishing that there’s a difference between accepting generosity and steamrolling over others to get what you want, would have allowed him to learn something valuable while still a child. Someone can both be giving and not be a doormat at the same time. And I think it does a child a huge disservice to neglect teaching them how to interact with others – they’re going to have to sooner or later, and if they can’t do it appropriately, someone’s going to suffer for it. To be blunt, no one should have to suffer because of someone else’s mistake, or worse, their willful abdication of responsibility. I know it happens all the time, I still think it’s crap when it does. No one should be sucked absolutely dry before it occurs to the other to be less selfish. If the other doesn’t have the impulse to moderate himself on his own, then it’s up to the giver to set limits. I’m not entirely convinced that the boy learned anything, either. The boy as an old man needed someplace to sit – is there really any more generous or loving motivation behind that than when he cut the tree down? Or is it just that he needed something different at this point in his life? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/58 "2008-10-24T18:30:42Z")
Look at all the back and forth the story has led to here. That wouldn’t happen with **Red Fish, Blue Fish**. I’m having dinner with my kids later tonight. I’ll try to remember to ask them if they remember the story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/59 "2008-10-24T18:31:06Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Tangentially, wasn’t Silverstein the one who also wrote some fetish poetry, or short prose, or something? I swear I read something like that. “Fetish poetry?” He wrote an enormous variety of material, which included writing for Playboy and some other adult stuff. This does not make “The Giving Tree” an S&M story. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304/60 "2008-10-24T18:31:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I recognize that real-life tress die when you cut them down, but this isn’t a real-life tree. Those don’t have feelings. That’s the problem with connecting this story to sociopathy and co-dependency in the real world. Were this a story for adults, I would agree. But, when you read this as a story for children, that distinction is not one that children will make. The book itself anthropomorphizes the tree – but it is still a _tree_. That is why some kids who read it are wigged out by the fact that this boy they’re supposed to identify with is _chopping somebody up_. If we’re connecting the story to sociopathy and co-dependency, we’re talking about _adults_ reading the story; children will never make that connection. And for adults, that allegory is certainly a valid one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-giving-tree-cute-story-or-sociopathic-mirror/469304.md?page=4)