# The Goblin Valley Vandals. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 14, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297 "2013-12-14T06:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/21 "2013-12-17T00:05:20Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Wow Magiver. And if we all pushed them over for fun, what would we have? A free parking lot or campsite? Do you not see the hypocrisy behind an “every rock is sacred” mentality and a park system that carves up land for better access? I’m not against the park doing this mind you, just the idea that they are the anointed ones who can do what they wish and the unwashed masses should be throttled for any disturbance made. A park can literally blow a mountain to hell for monuments to dead presidents but reverse-ably pushing a rock over and the shit hits the fan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/22 "2013-12-17T00:13:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you not see the hypocrisy behind an “every rock is sacred” mentality and a park system that carves up land for better access? Do you not see the difference between decisions made by custodians who answer to elected officials, and decisions made by random park visitors? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/23 "2013-12-17T00:24:57Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Which would entirely miss the point, since the whole reason these formations are interesting is that they formed without human intervention. really? you can spot the rock that was placed back on it’s original setting and one that’s not? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not really. The wide-spread publicity actually makes it more likely that copycats will destroy more of them. I’ll entertain your hypothesis even though these guys were kicked out of the Boy Scouts and severely criticized in every information venue. It’s an easily cited result. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You know what would be a good deterrent though? A nice hefty fine and a big chunk of community service. And we’re back to the park service doing far far worse. How do you charge someone with vandalizing the land without an exemption written into it? More importantly, what do you think the park service should have done when presented with an unstable rock along a park path? They could close the path and carve a new one out, reinforce the rock so nobody gets hurt, or topple it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/24 "2013-12-17T00:25:32Z")
**The Hamster King** : exactly. Most parks with networks of hiking trails will develop “independent” trails – short cuts that people have taken, all on their own, which have carved out new trails. Parks spend a lot of time and money rehabilitating the terrain, to bring the network back to the official trails only. Without any trails, no one would have access at all. It would be liking putting your lit candle under a basket. We don’t do that. Without any regulation, trails would criss-cross everywhere, and the whole park would become an erosion sink. The professional caretakers have to do the best they can to walk this tightrope. By and large, they do a very, very good job. We can all see Yellowstone, but we can’t just trample it flat by going anywhere we damn well want. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/25 "2013-12-17T00:27:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Do you not see the difference between decisions made by custodians who answer to elected officials, and decisions made by random park visitors? In the court of public opinion, absolutely. In an actual court, it depends on the law. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/26 "2013-12-17T01:19:43Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I’m guessing they end up with a fine of a few thousand dollars and like 500 hours of community service. I would be okay with that. With the service including pushing the rock up to the top of the hill. When they get it to the top, a bunch of Sierra Club members shove it down to the bottom and they have to start up all over again. > [@Bricker](#): > > What should they be charged with, precisely? Contributing to the heat death of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/27 "2013-12-17T01:53:59Z")
This is federally-owned land, isn’t it? I suspect that there are specific statutes dealing with destruction of environment on land owned by the Park Services, and if so, they could be charged with those. Even if not, though, it’s still vandalism. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Magiver** : > > Great, can I make a citizens arrest for any person or group who ran bulldozers through the area and built camp grounds and viewing areas and trails? Sure, if they did it without consent of the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/28 "2013-12-17T01:59:00Z")
No, it’s a state park, so presumably it’s state-owned land. So I don’t think Federal charges would apply. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/29 "2013-12-17T02:02:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is federally-owned land, isn’t it? I suspect that there are specific statutes dealing with destruction of environment on land owned by the Park Services, and if so, they could be charged with those. Even if not, though, it’s still vandalism. you’d think they could have done that the following day. I have a feeling they’re gong to have a hard time quantifying the obvious. Is there a penalty for removing or disturbing rocks from the park? Probably. If there are historic cases to compare to then the fine may be established and deemed too small for this case. Now the Park System looks lame for creating a court case where a simple fine is the prescribed outcome. > [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, if they did it without consent of the owner. You’re honor, I call George Burns to the stand. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/30 "2013-12-17T02:26:45Z")
My suggestion for punishment: the hoodoo-topplers must go back to Goblin Valley and fight the rock monster from Galaxy Quest. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/31 "2013-12-17T02:27:53Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > My suggestion for punishment: the hoodoo-topplers must go back to Goblin Valley and fight the rock monster from Galaxy Quest. What’s it’s motivation? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/32 "2013-12-17T17:26:32Z")
Not to put a damper on a conversation, but the ins and outs of whether the government violated the land before these guys did was discussed [in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705343) ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/33 "2014-02-01T04:23:26Z")
Bumping to report that the two men are now facing [felony criminal mischief charges](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25993877). ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/34 "2014-02-01T05:51:49Z")
Madness. It will turn to not guilty, since they had the good reason. “The men said the rock was in danger of falling and hurting someone.” If all they did was use their own muscle power, then the rock was due to fall. They certainly proved it was READY TO FALL, because it fall so easily My brother was hiking in the wilds when a rock like that did TOPPLE and hurt his companion… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/35 "2014-02-01T06:14:51Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Madness. It will turn to not guilty, since they had the good reason. > “The men said the rock was in danger of falling and hurting someone.” > > If all they did was use their own muscle power, then the rock was due to fall. They certainly proved it was READY TO FALL, because it fall so easily > > My brother was hiking in the wilds when a rock like that did TOPPLE and hurt his companion… Were that the case they should have alerted a Park Ranger of the danger rather than ‘wiggle it, just a little bit’ (being Boy Scouts they should have known this). My impression from the video of them doing it is they just wanted to knock it down for the fun of it and came up with that lame excuse to try and get out of what amounts to vandalism of state property. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/36 "2014-02-01T07:17:30Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > If all they did was use their own muscle power, then the rock was due to fall. They certainly proved it was READY TO FALL, because it fall so easily By that twisted logic, there can never be any vandalism. The fact that a vandal was physically capable of destroying something means it deserved to be destroyed. I would disagree (and so would the law). Just because you _can_ destroy something, doesn’t mean you _should_. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/37 "2014-02-02T00:39:22Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Were that the case they should have alerted a Park Ranger of the danger rather than ‘wiggle it, just a little bit’ (being Boy Scouts they should have known this). My impression from the video of them doing it is they just wanted to knock it down for the fun of it and came up with that lame excuse to try and get out of what amounts to vandalism of state property. Yep. Clearly assholes that had know idea what the fuck they where doing. Simple as that. Being an idiot or asshole does not excuse you from the crime. Why is this even a debate? They pushed it over because it was unsafe :rolleyes: Bullshit to the 10th power. The video shows it all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/38 "2014-02-03T16:56:48Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yep. Clearly assholes that had know idea what the fuck they where doing. Simple as that. Being an idiot or asshole does not excuse you from the crime. Why is this even a debate? > > They pushed it over because it was unsafe :rolleyes: Bullshit to the 10th power. **The video shows it all**. (bolding mine) I’m sure at court the defense will be able to show that there were prior encounters between both Mr. Hall and Mr. Taylor and this rock, and so this wasn’t really an isolated incident, it was a continuance of the 6 or so prior confrontations. Also, Mr. Hall and Mr. Taylor will prolly call expert witnesses who will testify that the defendants followed proper Boy Scout procedure for toppling rocks and so did nothing wrong. Also, the rock really toppled itself due to it’s addiction to various erosion processes, as they will show in court. Pictures of the broken rock and the video of the actual toppling (even with what would at first listen appear to be damning statements from the defendants) will prove to be inconsequential at trial, and ultimately both men will be found not guilty. Well, that’s what would prolly happen if they were cops. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/39 "2014-02-05T16:03:16Z")
I wonder if they use the “Stand Your Ground” defense. They were evidently threatened by the rock and moving away from the threat it posed was not an option. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297/40 "2014-02-05T16:08:47Z")
> [@DrumBum](#): > > I wonder if they use the “Stand Your Ground” defense. They were evidently threatened by the rock and moving away from the threat it posed was not an option. 😃 Actually, it was the rock that was standing it’s ground. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goblin-valley-vandals/676297.md?page=3)