# "THE GODFATHER"-Greatest American Movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155 "2001-07-29T13:18:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/21 "2001-07-30T18:54:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\* > > [P.S. I think “Citizen Kane” is greatly over-rated. “Magnificent Ambersons” is a much better Welles film] \*\* Partial to Touch of Evil myself…but then I have a thing for Noir. Never really liked “Kane” - majored in Film and I’ve seen it probably a dozen times. The Godfather was a great movie, but didn’t speak to me personally…wouldn’t be making my personal top ten. I’d have a hard time picking one, but Casablanca would be up there for me. Although it really isn’t a great film in the way Kane or Birth of a Nation are great films. Which is the other problem - define great. Technically wonderful? Great story? High Box Office? Enters pop-conciousness? Changes film making? Personally watch it again and again and again (Auntie Mame, anyone?). ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/22 "2001-07-30T19:51:50Z")
djf750 wrote: > [@](#): > > shawshank redemption??? […] where the hero escapes thru human waste and then enters a bank in the wardens stolen suit which fits perfectly even though the hero is 6 inches taller than the warden? (and the smell from the escape was gone from the suit) Now now, he carried the suit out of prison in a stink-proof bag. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/23 "2001-07-31T02:50:59Z")
Well, the Godfather is great(I like all 3 parts. Yes, all 3), but there are some competitors. **2001: A Space Odyssey** This is the film that legitimized Sci-Fi. **Citzen Kane** Duh. **Schindler’s List** So good that there is a backlash against saying it’s good(to avoid being trendy). As for **Birth of a Nation**? No way, dude. There was a movie the very next year(1916) by the same director(Griffith) that is far superior(not just because of racism). **Intolerance** [http://us.imdb.com/Details?0006864](http://us.imdb.com/Details?0006864) Griffith made this movie not as an apology for his own intolerance, but as a critique of America’s own intolerance of his racist views. Still, amazingly brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![City\_Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@City\_Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/City_Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/24 "2001-08-01T04:23:10Z")
I’m not going to argue the technical merits of **The Godfather** ; in fact, I enjoyed the book and movie very much as storytelling. But many people will remember **The Godfather** mainly because it cemented the image of the Mafia as inextricably entwined with the Sicilian-American way of life, which is a damned lie. I’m not saying it makes the film ineligible for greatness, but I can think of a lot of other films of comparable quality that did not contribute to prejudice. That ought to count for something. Judging the film solely on its technical merits without considering the validity of the story reminds me of the way high school literature is taught - diagram the sentences, discuss the use of foreshadowing and symbolism, but for God’s sake don’t discuss what the author was trying to say. (Waiting patiently for flames) ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/25 "2001-08-01T18:18:19Z")
I personally vote for _Casablanca_ and _Glory_ both over _The Godfather._ Best non-American film I’ve seen is _Billy Budd_ (UK production). I like it better than _The Godfather_ too, but not as much as _Casablanca_ or _Glory._ I do like _The Godfather Part II_ better than the original, but only if you view the two as one movie; the sequel can’t stand on its own. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/26 "2001-08-02T14:35:39Z")
Non American Films that were Great? A few come to mind Das Boat (the greatest War Movie ever made) Il Postino Life is Beautiful The Wicker Man Black Robe (came out the same time as Costner’s pap Dances with wolves and so much better at portraying the friction between natives and whites) Road Warrior (Well I loved it and lets face it that film has been copied over and again “Water World” God I hate Costner) Run Lola Run Nosferateau (the original) Jesus of Montreal etc etc… ---
**Author:** ![Fogglethorpe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Fogglethorpe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fogglethorpe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/27 "2001-08-04T21:07:29Z")
I vote for “Goodburger”. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/28 "2001-08-05T01:05:37Z")
Now I know why I live in **GQ** Just Kidding! The **OP** is a combo question, but I am looking for the **GD** part. **buddy1** thinks that _Godfather I_ is the greatest movie ever(IMHO?), then asks “Anyway, does ANYBODY know the name of the piece of piano music, that is being played while the Corleone-tataglia gang war rages?” **GQ** I guess that I want to know the difference between **GD** and **IMHO**. Where would a mod direct this thread? Don’t flame me just yet, as I enjoyed the responses to this thread. I always learn much from them. Do any of the posts in this thread relate to something I heard on NPR radio today, that scripwriters voted Casablanca and Citizen Kane both the best and worst top 10 scripts of all time? Or maybe they said “overrated.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/29 "2001-08-05T01:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by City Gent \* > **I’m not going to argue the technical merits of The Godfather; in fact, I enjoyed the book and movie very much as storytelling. But many people will remember The Godfather mainly because it cemented the image of the Mafia as inextricably entwined with the Sicilian-American way of life, which is a damned lie.** I suppose it’s also possible that _Jurassic Park_ cemented the idea in some people’s heads that there really are dinosaurs running around Costa Rican islands, and it’s all Richard Attenborough’s fault. It is entirely possible that some people think a guy named Rocky Balboa really was the world heavyweight champion and that there really is a Blair Witch who killed three stupid kids. But those people are idiots, as are the people who think all Sicilians are in the mob, and their opinions are not a valid reason to criticise Francis Ford Coppola or Steven Spielberg. If I had to pick The Greatest Movie of All Time, I’d probably pick _The Godfather,_ but there are ten other movies I’d say are so close to it they may as well be tied. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/30 "2001-08-05T06:42:36Z")
What do we mean when speak of something as being the “greatest” of it’s type? Such as a movie, an album, an historical figure, etc. I would say that determining greatness involves balancing 3 criteria: 1. Sheer popularity. How many people saw the movie, bought the album, etc. 2. Quality. Assuming you and the critics agree, but something can be “good” or “the best”, but if it goes largely unnoticed, it can’t be “great”. 3. Lasting influence on the culture. _The Godfather_, or one of the other films mentioned above, may the _better_ film, but by this crieteria, I submit that _Star Wars_ is the _greater_ film. ---
**Author:** ![Fogglethorpe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Fogglethorpe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fogglethorpe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/31 "2001-08-05T15:00:12Z")
Ok, “Spaceballs”, then. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/32 "2001-08-05T15:23:43Z")
Godfather is a good film but personally I find the theme and the main characters too unpleasant to list it as one of my favourites. I haven’t even seen GF2 though I definitely will one of these days. Among iconic American films I would rate Casablanca as a better film. I don’t really have a single film that I would label the “greatest” And don’t lets restrict ourselves to drama. I think the great comedies like Annie Hall and Bringing up Baby rank right up there. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2001, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/33 "2001-08-06T02:14:22Z")
I don’t know about the piano piece you refer to, but I was quite pleased to hear Bach’s Passacaglia and Fugue in C-minor being played during the baptism sequence. But, yeah, I’ll agree: The first two films, taken together are probably the greatest character study in American cinema. Otoh, Chinatown is a great film too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![buddy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy1)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2001, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/34 "2001-08-06T13:35:58Z")
Thanks for the replies. Anyway, I just completed watching the whole trilogy. Here’s another question for debate: exactly WHY was the Corleone family so ridden with traitors? Michael’s sister marries one (Carlo, who gets bumped off after the baptism cermony in part 1). And, the weak-minded Fredo becomes an (unwitting) ally of the evil hyman Roth (was his character supposed to be Lepke Buchalter or Meir Lansky?).And, of course the guy played by Abe Vigoda turns out to be a rat as well. So, was the Corleone mob a poor payer? Why did old Don Vito have all these turncoats working for the “genco puro” olive oil company? Is changing jobs in the mob world that hazardous to your health? ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/35 "2001-08-07T00:17:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > **I suppose it’s also possible that _Jurassic Park_ cemented the idea in some people’s heads that there really are dinosaurs running around Costa Rican islands, and it’s all Richard Attenborough’s fault…But those people are idiots, as are the people who think all Sicilians are in the mob, and their opinions are not a valid reason to criticise Francis Ford Coppola or Steven Spielberg.** Thanks, RJ. That is the exact reply I will use the next time my mother explains why she refuses to watch _The Sopranos_. ---
**Author:** ![Silvio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Silvio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvio)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/36 "2001-08-07T07:36:01Z")
Buddy, I think the level of treason and treachery in the Corleone family is probably pretty realistic for the average mob family. Maybe the Corleone family has it worse than most because it is the most successful and well-run of the families and tends to attract the smartest and most ambitious people, which also tend to be the most ruthless and cutthroat. On the other hand, in an organization like that, the best thing you can do if you are less than smart or ambitious (like Carlo or Pauli) is to try to advance by treachery…which means the Corleones have the worst of both worlds. Hyman Roth is definately patterned after Meyer Lansky, as Vito Corleone is patterned after Carlo Gambino. ---
**Author:** ![H8\_2\_W8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c77e96/32.png) [@H8\_2\_W8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H8_2_W8)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/37 "2001-08-07T15:13:23Z")
in the Godfather, it took me about 10 viewings until I finally noticed something that, to me at least, makes this one of the most important scenes in the whole movie. Michael went to the meeting as a civilian, but it was also planned that he would kill both men if he got the opportunity. He was to get the pistol from the toilet, walk out and immediately shoot them in the head, drop the gun to his side, drop it on the floor and walk out. What he actually did was get the gun, come back and sit down and wait for the noisy elevated train to come by again, so the noise of the shot wouldn’t be noticed by Tattaglia’s bodyguard/driver waiting outside. Can you imagine the stress and the anxiety a normal person would be feeling at the thought of killing two people in public? But Michael was cool enough, even though he hadn’t been in the family business and certainly hadn’t killed anyone, to determine a tactical advantage in waiting for a distraction before shooting them. Michael asserted control over this situation and eventually used his intellect and cunning to become the Don. Plus it helped that Sonny got whacked. ---
**Author:** ![Silvio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Silvio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvio)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/38 "2001-08-07T16:50:51Z")
Well, Michael was a decorated war veteran of the Pacific theater, so he probably had killed people and had his nerves sharpened under combat…but it is a lot different to kill two guys face to face over the diner table. It is a great scene…I always thought the part where the dialogue is drowned out by the train represents that Michael’s own tension had built to such a fevor pitch that he couldn’t tell what they were saying and didn’t care. The greatest American movie ever? I think that if you consider the first two one movie, yeah, it is. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/39 "2001-08-07T17:40:09Z")
Fogglethorpe wrote: > [@](#): > > I vote for “Goodburger”. What a coincidence! [So did Mr. Cranky!](http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/goodburger.html)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nixon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@Nixon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nixon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155/40 "2001-08-07T18:26:28Z")
Godfather I - a very good movie, IMHO But best U.S. film ever, nah The film has too much melodrama, too much uneccessary emphasis on the Italian ethnicity of the Corleone family, and too much “instruction” to the audience on Sicilian and Mafia arcana. A great protrait of Michael’s rise to power, performed to perfection by Pacino. To me, however, Goodfellas is the best, most true to life, Mafia film. Tremendous performances by all the cast members, though marred by Scorcese’s refusal to edit. (If Scorcese had made Godfather, I beleive that the mob’s influence in Hollywood would be much more close to the mark than the unanticipated decapitation of Mr. Ed.) I am one of the very, very few movie fans who thinks that Godfather II is overrated. Michael is again the major character but in this film he shows no growth, essentially he is Henry Hill as the Godfather. Yes, yes, Coppola is trying to show how what Vito Corleone started in the early 1900s led to the destruction of the family under Michael by 1960 but to me, it became a bore. It also lacked Richard Castellano, a great character actor. It is almost as if Coppola was remaking Macbeth in the guise of a Mafia movie. To his credit, Godfather II isn’t a sequel and can easily be viewed separate from the first film. Best U.S. film ever - a tough question. Many people simply leave out “The Birth of a Nation” and “Citizen Kane” due to their influence and innovations. Others argue that “Star Wars” should be considered for restoring fun and excitement to the industry. Woody Allen, in this week’s New York Times ( [http://www.nytimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com) ), suggested the western “Shane”. Since I can’t choose “Lawrence of Arabia”, “2001: A Space Odyssey”, or “The Third Man” (all British films), I’ll go with Casablanca. dos centavos [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-greatest-american-movie/74155.md?page=3)