# The Godfather (I & II): Why are they so well regarded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 14, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318 "2018-09-14T02:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/61 "2018-09-17T17:18:53Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > … creating their own world. That part is a candidate for “THE answer to the OP”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/62 "2018-09-17T17:21:51Z")
[quote=“x-ray\_vision, post:59, topic:821318”] She may not be specifically mentioned, but attention is paid to her being killed. In the book, Apollonia’s killer (Fabrizzio) moves to the US and runs a pizza shop in Buffalo. Michael has him taken care of. Here is a deleted scene from the movie: [/QUOTE] Apparently, there’s another scene from the original Godfather (that one is from the sequel, according to what I read) that shows Michael himself taking care of Fabrizzio with a shotgun at the pizza place. [ETA: Apparently, this is a still from the scene in Godfather I](http://entertainment.time.com/2012/03/15/the-anniversary-you-cant-refuse-40-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-godfather/slide/deleted-scene-1-michael-shoots-his-wifes-killer/). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/63 "2018-09-17T17:26:56Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Apparently, there’s another scene from the original Godfather (that one is from the sequel, according to what I read) that shows Michael himself taking care of Fabrizzio with a shotgun at the pizza place. [ETA: Apparently, this is a still from the scene in Godfather I](http://entertainment.time.com/2012/03/15/the-anniversary-you-cant-refuse-40-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-godfather/slide/deleted-scene-1-michael-shoots-his-wifes-killer/). I have heard that, and also heard that the scene was never actually filmed. > [@](#): > > In a deleted scene from the film’s script, Michael personally shoots Fabrizio. This scene was never filmed, although publicity photos were distributed of Michael firing a Lupara Double-barrel shotgun. > **[Fabrizio](https://godfather.fandom.com/wiki/Fabrizio)** > > "Hey, hey, hey, take me to America, G.I.! Clark Gable! Eh!" ―Fabrizio\[src\] Fabrizio was a Sicilian shepherd who worked for Don Tommasino, acting as a bodyguard for Michael Corleone during his time in Sicily. Once a sailor in the Italian Navy,... I’m guessing the info above is correct. With so many deleted scenes available now, I would think that one would be too if it were filmed. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/64 "2018-09-17T18:10:30Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Note that the extra shots were included in _The Godfather Saga_ version, which aired on prime time TV. Also more about Vito going on about Woltz’s _infamia_, IIRC. I finally got to see the Saga after watching both I and II several times, and I was surprised to not like it nearly as well. It was cool to see a few previously unseen scenes, but having the “Baptism” montage – truly five of the greatest minutes in U.S. cinema – happen two hours before the end of the saga made everything else feel like an anticlimax. Tessio’s _denoument_ at the end of I (“Tell Mike it was only business. I always liked him.”) still leaves me awestruck. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/65 "2018-09-17T18:44:04Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I have heard that, and also heard that the scene was never actually filmed. > [Fabrizio | The Godfather Wiki | Fandom](http://godfather.wikia.com/wiki/Fabrizio) > > I’m guessing the info above is correct. With so many deleted scenes available now, I would think that one would be too if it were filmed. I was wondering about that. Thanks for the info. Well, I’m almost geared up to finally watch Godfather 2. Just looking for a nice hole to fit in an uninterrupted 3 1/2 hours of showtime. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/66 "2018-09-17T19:01:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What a man did in the war isn’t how you see him in civilian life. The idea that my grandfathers did incredibly dangerous things in Europe in 1944 was cool to me, but cool in the same way movies or TV shows are cool. It was an abstraction, a story from a misty past. If my kindly, gentle, quiet grandfather who lived down the street had so much as raised his voice in anger, I would have been as shocked as if he had grown a second head. > > This was even more true in the past than it is today; now, American soldiers returning from way are venerated as “warriors” who are different from civilians. Then, when you got back from the war, the assumption was that you took the uniform off and were a civilian again; it was something you were expected to leave behind entirely (a concept that has cons as well as pros.) I disagree. This is not an old man that had half forgotten medals stuffed in a drawer who never talked about his war. This was recent history that was on the cover of Life magazine. Everyone would understand that Michael was a killer. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I was just at my Sicilian grandmother’s funeral a few months ago and an elderly woman was bawling and throwing herself around the room. I’ve known my grandmother for 40+ years, and I’ve never seen this woman before in my life, so I have no idea how it’s possible she could have been that genuinely upset. I ask my mom who the hell this lady is, and she tells me that this is her form of social media. She shows up to funerals of people she knows and plays the part of the most sad person in the room to show respect. My grandmother was 104 when she died and in a nursing home for years. There were still plenty of little old Italian ladies at her funeral. They show up for all funerals. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/67 "2018-09-17T19:18:32Z")
Fabrizio going [boom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsCEFJ2wEA) is shown in the _Saga_ version. No shotgun. Waste of a pizza. I guess the days of taking the food after a hit were gone. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/68 "2018-09-17T20:45:43Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Fabrizio going [boom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsCEFJ2wEA) is shown in the _Saga_ version. No shotgun. Yes, that was the clip linked-to above, that I quoted in my reply. ---
**Author:** ![Sloe\_Moe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sloe\_Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sloe_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/69 "2018-09-17T23:18:21Z")
Who were the brothers’ Godfathers? The books says Clemenza was Sonny’s GF, but it didn’t confirm that Don Thomasino was GF to Michael. Fredo’s GF was likely the guy over in the west coast. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/70 "2018-09-18T02:39:16Z")
The ending of GF2 is what brings the whole tragedy full circle for me. First you have the flashback scene where Michael announces he has joined the Marines, with Sonny and Tom pissed at him. It’s easy to miss it, it happens so fast, but the only person who supported him was Fredo, who couldn’t even get his full “That’s great, Mike…” out before Sonny slaps his proffered handshake and tells him to leave the table to get some wine (further emasculating Fredo by both dismissing him while “the men” talk and by giving him women’s work to do.) Mike/Tom/Sonny argue a bit more, Don Corleone enters (off-camera) and the scene fades out, Michael sitting at the table, drinking… Cut to Michael, 17 years later, in his cold Nevada home, alone, reminiscing about that dinner celebration… his father dead, his mother dead, his oldest brother dead, his brother in law dead, his sister rejecting him, Tom rejecting him, and his older brother… the _only_ person who supported Michael in the first adult decision Michael made… dead at Michael’s order. In fact, it can be argued that with the exception of his parents, Michael is directly or indirectly responsible for the death and/or alienation of his entire direct family. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/71 "2018-09-18T03:12:03Z")
Just rewatched the flashback scene… damn, Tessio is in it, yet another person killed at Michael’s command. And, I’m pretty sure I’m correct in that it was Michael’s kid who Don Corleone was chasing around when he had _his_ heart attack. ---
**Author:** ![Sloe\_Moe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sloe\_Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sloe_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/72 "2018-09-18T04:01:54Z")
Michael may have ordered Carlo killed but he hardly did it viscerally. Clemenza relished killing him since Sonny was his Godson. As to the death of Sonny, I can’t see how Michael might have actuated it even indirectly. Fredo I can understand how he (Michael) might have brought it about. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/73 "2018-09-18T04:16:54Z")
The killing of the police captain brought about unbearable pressure on the 3 families not caught up in the Tattaglia-Corleone war, so much so that other families… notably the Barzini family… had to take things into their own hands. This is directly stated in the novel and very much implied in the movie “Tattaglia’s a pimp, he could’ve never out-fought Sonny. But it wasn’t until tonight that I knew it was Barzini all along.” Remember, in the scene where they are discussing what to do with Solozzo, Tom is arguing that they negotiate, which is what was expected by the other families. It is Michael, deciding to sacrifice his freedom, who plunged the family into a greater war, one that had them fighting the other four NY Families and, eventually, getting Sonny killed. Don’t even understand your argument about Carlo and Fredo… Michael directly ordered both killed, plain, pure, and simple. Don Corleone couldn’t kill Carlo because of the pain it would cause Connie (also more explicit in the novel), leaving it to Michael, and we literally saw what happened with Fredo. ---
**Author:** ![Sloe\_Moe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sloe\_Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sloe_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/74 "2018-09-18T06:31:16Z")
From what I can recall from the book, and faithfully rendered in the movie, was that Barzini and Sollozo were bent on destroying the Corleones right at the start. I suppose they knew Don Vito would never play along with the drug business. So no amount of negotiating, as proposed by Hagen, will prosper. And that the tactical advantage in getting rid of Sollozo early on was just a momentary setback to the enemies of the Corleones. Even before Michael came up with his idea of killing Sollozo, the enemies had already compromised various members of the family: Fredo in Las Vegas, Tesio, and Carlo. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/75 "2018-09-18T16:02:35Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > For example, there is a scene where Sonny gets a phone call fingering the bodyguard as the traitor in his father’s shooting. Without that the viewer knows vaguely that they figured it out somehow, but it was such a short scene that it could have been included. I recently saw the “saga” version and a scene I’d never seen before, with Sonny huddling with Tessio; and Michael pesters Sonny to let him in on what they’re discussing. Finally, Sonny says: “Do we whack Clemenza or Paulie?” Had this scene made the cut it would have ruined the surprise when Paulie does get whacked, in the famous “take the cannoli” scene. The final version is perfect the way it is. I can appreciate that GF2 is a classic but I’ve never loved it the way I do GF1; mostly because I’m perpetually confused by the story. I’ve never figured out Hyman Roth and Johnny Ola and who’s double-crossing who and what’s going on with Frankie Pentangeli… ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/76 "2018-09-18T16:06:40Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The killing of the police captain brought about unbearable pressure on the 3 families not caught up in the Tattaglia-Corleone war, so much so that other families… notably the Barzini family… had to take things into their own hands. This is directly stated in the novel and very much implied in the movie “Tattaglia’s a pimp, he could’ve never out-fought Sonny. But it wasn’t until tonight that I knew it was Barzini all along.” I love that line, and I think it’s important to nit-pick that it’s actually “he never could’ve out-fought Santino.” To us the viewers, he’s Sonny the hothead; but to Vito he’s his first-born and always known by his proper name. It’s little things like that… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/77 "2018-09-18T16:15:14Z")
> [@Sloe\_Moe](#): > > Even before Michael came up with his idea of killing Sollozo, the enemies had already compromised various members of the family: Fredo in Las Vegas, Tesio, and Carlo. I’ll beg to differ here. Fredo wasn’t compromised - he was at that point of zero importance. He was basically just laying low in Vegas under the protection of a loosely allied west coast family and playing gopher to Moe Green. Only after the inter-family war over was he promoted to “underboss” on paper and became an attractive target for Hyman Roth and Johnny Ola. Nor was Tessio compromised at that point, in the book or the movie. His disaffection didn’t begin until Vito ceded day-to-day control to Michael and Michael started allowing rival families to steadily nibble at his territory without retaliation. Michael wanted to appear weak and vulnerable, to lull the other families into an aggressive complacency. But he refused to discuss his strategy with Clemenza and Tessio, who understandably were upset at this erosion of their powerbases. So Tessio flipped thinking Michael was overmatched after Vito died - it was “the smart play.” Hard to say with Carlo when he was flipped. But apparently it didn’t happen until after [Sonny beats the crap out of him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OEhiTHJ0EA), so after Michael flees to Sicily. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/78 "2018-09-18T16:18:01Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I recently saw the “saga” version and a scene I’d never seen before, with Sonny huddling with Tessio; and Michael pesters Sonny to let him in on what they’re discussing. Finally, Sonny says: “Do we whack Clemenza or Paulie?” > > Had this scene made the cut it would have ruined the surprise when Paulie does get whacked, in the famous “take the cannoli” scene. The final version is perfect the way it is. > > I can appreciate that GF2 is a classic but I’ve never loved it the way I do GF1; mostly because I’m perpetually confused by the story. I’ve never figured out Hyman Roth and Johnny Ola and who’s double-crossing who and what’s going on with Frankie Pentangeli… Pentangeli is Clemenza. Seriously… was written as Clemenza, but since the actor that played Clemenza backed out, they had to create a new character. Hyman Roth is double-crossing Michael by selling him a $2 million interest in a casino knowing it will be nationalized within a week. Johnny Ola is just one of Roth’s henchmen and was Roth’s means of getting to Fredo. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/79 "2018-09-18T16:46:28Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Pentangeli is Clemenza. Seriously… was written as Clemenza, but since the actor that played Clemenza backed out, they had to create a new character. That, I think, is the biggest missed opportunity in II. It would have resonated so much more if someone who had been with Vito from the beginning also betrayed Michael and was forced to fall on his sword because of it. It’s a tremendous pity that Richard Castellano and Coppola couldn’t reach agreement. (According to some accounts, it was because Castellano didn’t think Clemenza would become a traitor. But of course one of the points of the Godfather movies is that almost everyone betrays everyone else.) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318/80 "2018-09-18T17:37:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That, I think, is the biggest missed opportunity in II. It would have resonated so much more if someone who had been with Vito from the beginning also betrayed Michael and was forced to fall on his sword because of it. It’s a tremendous pity that Richard Castellano and Coppola couldn’t reach agreement. (According to some accounts, it was because Castellano didn’t think Clemenza would become a traitor. But of course one of the points of the Godfather movies is that almost everyone betrays everyone else.) They should have just recast and pretended the new actor was Clemenza and moved on. Same with Saavik/Valeris. It needed to be Saavik that was the betrayer, just like it needed to be Clemenza. Follow the Darren Stevens lesson. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather-i-ii-why-are-they-so-well-regarded/821318.md?page=5)