# The Godfather **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363 "2017-01-28T03:36:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/1 "2017-01-28T03:36:49Z")
Why did Clemenza and Michael leave the guns? Especially Michael … holding it up dramatically before dropping it? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/2 "2017-01-28T03:52:09Z")
It enhanced Michael’s reputation, without leaving fingerprints or traceable property. People saw him in that restaurant and knew better than to share with the cops on the record, but they talked. Michael’s succession as the Godfather was not a done deal at that point; Sonny had been the first choice, after all, and Fredo was older. This cemented his reputation as a capable man. Clemenza’s gun was similarly untraceable. Keeping it with him would just be asking for trouble. And it was really awesome canoli. Ditching an incriminating gun was standard practice in Don Corleone’s organization, going back to his very first hit. Remember him pulling the gun apart and droppping it down various pipes and chimneys? ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/3 "2017-01-28T03:52:16Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Why did Clemenza and Michael leave the guns? > > Especially Michael … holding it up dramatically before dropping it? To ensure there would be no chance of them being caught with the murder weapon on their person. That would take some Matlock level lawyering to get out of and they didn’t really do crossovers back then. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/4 "2017-01-28T04:05:07Z")
I can’t remember if they mentioned it in the movie, but in the book there was mention that the family wrapped the guns in some kind of special tape that wouldn’t show fingerprints. Also, when the Don’s bodyguards finally showed up at the hospital, Tom Hagen made it a point to tell McCluskey that they all had permits to carry. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/5 "2017-01-28T05:10:27Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I can’t remember if they mentioned it in the movie, but in the book there was mention that the family wrapped the guns in some kind of special tape that wouldn’t show fingerprints. > > Also, when the Don’s bodyguards finally showed up at the hospital, Tom Hagen made it a point to tell McCluskey that they all had permits to carry. They weren’t his bodyguards they were private detectives hired for the occasion because his normal bodyguards (Tessio’s men) were run off by McCluskey’s men. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/6 "2017-01-28T05:37:29Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > To ensure there would be no chance of them being caught with the murder weapon on their person. That would take some Matlock level lawyering to get out of and they didn’t really do crossovers back then. This was also my understanding. The gun had some magic tape on it that didn’t retain fingerprints, so if the shooter left the gun at the scene, he couldn’t be caught with it later. I’ve seen that trope in other movies, too (no idea if it bears any resemblance to actual professional murders). In _Grosse Point Blank_, for example, Dan Aykroyd blasts some guy then dramatically drops his guns. He was wearing latex gloves, so I guess the idea was there were no prints on the gun, so it was less risky just to leave it there. (Although he also pulls off the gloves and leaves them there as well. I would think the cops could get prints from the gloves, but I dunno.) ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/7 "2017-01-28T05:42:20Z")
Something I always wondered: What could Hagen have been carrying in that big briefcase he took on the California trip? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/8 "2017-01-28T10:27:28Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Why did Clemenza and Michael leave the guns? > > Especially Michael … holding it up dramatically before dropping it? I always got the feeling that Michael held up the gun somewhat in shock that he actually did what did. It was, after all, the point of no turning back. He was lost after that. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/9 "2017-01-28T12:27:45Z")
Remember – “Leave the gun, take the _cannoli_” is an improv by the actor, that Coppola kept. Remember also, that actor, wanted a writing credit for Godfather II, so they replaced him with the character Franki Pentangeli. This has come up before, if you need more exposition, you could have the subordinate ask, “You want I should wash the blood and brains and prints offa it first?” ANd have Clemenza say: “Wha? No. Whatta I care? We are the fuckin Mafia? Police? Detectives? Vindictive buddies? Fuck 'em all. We kill who we want, when we want, and we leave the evidence. We own the people who will investigate. I’m not afraid …” “So why you taking the cannoli?” “OK fine. I’m afraid of my wife. OK. Maybe I’m so food driven I can’t leave a snack behind, even as I abandon a car. So what, that’s who I am. That’s who WE are.” You see, this unwritten dialog is behind the rest of the film, the next _Godfather_ films, _Goodfellas_, _The Sopranos_, countless others. The _fugget_ about the gun, take the _canoli_ trope was essentially created by actor Richard S. Castellano. Look at it all, later when he makes sauce when they go to the mattresses, tweeked out Ray Liotta obsessing over sauce, peppers and a little veal just as an appetizer. I’ve told people, you wanna cook Italian, watch the _Godfather_ and _Goodfellas_. “Urm, those aren’t really detailed instructions …” Its not details, you can get recipes online. Its attitude. My family is under strict orders, should I die suddenly, make a pot of _ragu_, and be ready to serve it to those who come. Tell them its what I wanted. Tell them its what I believe we are culturally. Ragu. Not hard liquor. Insulting stereotypes be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/10 "2017-01-28T13:07:35Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Something I always wondered: What could Hagen have been carrying in that big briefcase he took on the California trip? I think in the book he has a whole dossier on Woltz that he is reviewing to figure out the best way to make him an offer he can’t refuse. Which makes me wonder if the family just happens to have information on a film mogul 3,000 miles away or if Tom got that various law enforcement agencies ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/11 "2017-01-28T14:19:02Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > I think in the book he has a whole dossier on Woltz that he is reviewing to figure out the best way to make him an offer he can’t refuse. Which makes me wonder if the family just happens to have information on a film mogul 3,000 miles away or if Tom got that various law enforcement agencies Tom threatens Woltz with union troubles. The mob historically had good relations with some unions. The Hollywood unions would have been a _very_ good source for information on Woltz. They could also provide muscle for various horse-related activities. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/12 "2017-01-28T14:35:55Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Tom threatens Woltz with union troubles. The mob historically had good relations with some unions. The Hollywood unions would have been a _very_ good source for information on Woltz. They could also provide muscle for various horse-related activities. The book says Tom went over all the information given to that day. Johnny Fontaine and Vito are mentioned. It also says he opened the briefcase and tried to get paperwork done but was too tired. Woltz was originally from New York who had helped his father sweat garment workers, moved to California at age 30 to invest in movies, remade himself at age 50 with speech lessons but at age 60 was still powerfully built. The union wasn’t too good at threatening Woltz. All he could get Tom was a 10 AM appointment, the first of the day, which meant Tom wouldn’t have lunch with Woltz. Later during the Five Families War the union boss Goff tried threatening Fontane and was killed for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/13 "2017-01-28T17:14:06Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Why did Clemenza and Michael leave the guns? > > Especially Michael … holding it up dramatically before dropping it? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I always got the feeling that Michael held up the gun somewhat in shock that he actually did what did. It was, after all, the point of no turning back. He was lost after that. This. Sonny’s instructions were to hold his hand down at his side and let the gun drop to the floor. Most people wouldn’t notice, think he was still armed, and leave him alone as he leaves the restaurant. That was the plan, but Michael was too much in shock to carry out, or probably even remember, the instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/14 "2017-01-28T18:39:57Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Especially Michael … holding it up dramatically before dropping it? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I always got the feeling that Michael held up the gun somewhat in shock that he actually did what did. It was, after all, the point of no turning back. He was lost after that. > [@Cayuga](#): > > This. Sonny’s instructions were to hold his hand down at his side and let the gun drop to the floor. Most people wouldn’t notice, think he was still armed, and leave him alone as he leaves the restaurant. > > That was the plan, but Michael was too much in shock to carry out, or probably even remember, the instructions. You’re misremembering it. I just re-watched [the scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSQqv2UuvC0). Michael never “holds the gun up dramatically.” After shooting Solozzo and McCluskey, he briefly threatens the other patrons and the waiter with it to intimidate them, then turns holding the gun down at his side as Sonny told him to. When he reaches the front of the restaurant, he tosses the gun away when it’s at hip-height, then raises his hand to shoulder height briefly as a follow-through to the toss. The fact that he tosses the gun rather than lets it drop casually is probably due to his emotional state. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/15 "2017-01-28T22:16:42Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Something I always wondered: What could Hagen have been carrying in that big briefcase he took on the California trip? A very sharp saw. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/16 "2017-01-29T00:20:38Z")
IMHO, I don’t think Michael is in any shock after the hit because we’ve already seen what a cool cucumber he is under pressure when he shows no fear at the hospital (and as if to reinforce this characteristic, we see that he even notices it himself). Then his cold soliloquy describing so matter-of-factly how he’ll kill McCluskey and Sollozzo shows us he really is a trained solider on a mission. The most shocking thing about the scene is that Coppola used a take where Al Pacino bumps into the camera as he’s walking out of the restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/17 "2017-01-29T00:25:49Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Something I always wondered: What could Hagen have been carrying in that big briefcase he took on the California trip? Uh, papers. Um, just papers, uh, you know, uh, my papers. Business papers. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/18 "2017-01-29T05:42:57Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > Uh, papers. Um, just papers, uh, you know, uh, my papers. Business papers. …Man. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/19 "2017-01-29T08:44:16Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > IMHO, I don’t think Michael is in any shock after the hit because we’ve already seen what a cool cucumber he is under pressure when he shows no fear at the hospital (and as if to reinforce this characteristic, we see that he even notices it himself). Then his cold soliloquy describing so matter-of-factly how he’ll kill McCluskey and Sollozzo shows us he really is a trained solider on a mission. I’m not so sure, Even watching it back now he is rather hesitant and stumbling in the aftermath of the shooting and I don’t think Pacino would have done that by accident. The exaggerated dropping of the gun suggests a degree of almost disgust at getting his hands dirty. Now I come to think of it…Is that the only time we see Michael actually kill someone? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363/20 "2017-01-29T09:59:19Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > Uh, papers. Um, just papers, uh, you know, uh, my papers. Business papers. And what do you do, sir? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-godfather/778363.md?page=2)