# The Golden Age of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575 "2010-03-24T03:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/181 "2010-03-31T14:33:33Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > There was not more than one nation of people on the island of Ireland prior to English occupation. There was only one - Ireland! A grouping of people who shared a common [culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick), [language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language), and [ethnic origin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people). As far as having a common history, that is an admittedly more contentious assertion, due to the political fragmentation of the various tribes, but even there the various tribes at least notionally recognized a common [overlord](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland). The various states which practiced Catholicism as an established religion notionally acknowledged the Pope as a common overlord. Political fragmentation is a side issue to you, but when the question is whether or not a country has any inherent right to exist it’s a key factor. Is there an Irish nation? Absolutely. Does that nation necessarily encompass the whole island? No. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Really Not All That Bright** (who seems to be living up to his user name), the Celts were there long before the British. They even had their own [language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language). Thank you for your “contribution”. Perhaps you should read the thread before attempting to participate in it. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/182 "2010-03-31T16:04:11Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > This is _not_ meant as an apology for the evil done by the war of conquest initiated by Hitler and his cronies, but rather to contrast with the cartoon-like views presented by some who see simply: Axis soldier = evil; Allied soldier = good. Cartooning the Nazis? We are there already… In one of the [Fringe](http://www.tv.com/fringe/the-bishop-revival/episode/1318766/summary.html?tag=ep_guide;summary)episodes, a Nazi was featured, of cos he was the bad guy… well, he killed a lot of people and stuff…which generally qualifies for that… but he was also still looking 30ish while being 120 years old and listening to WW2 music. And of cos, he used a DNA targeting Virus, which was developed in Germany at about 1943, where you could select the skin or eye colour for the victims… of cos it is all based on hard facts and real stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/183 "2010-03-31T16:19:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The various states which practiced Catholicism as an established religion notionally acknowledged the Pope as a common overlord. This is really getting ridiculous. In the first place, it was not even until the papacy of [Gregory VII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_Reform) that there even existed a concept of universal Papal supremacy over all the various kingdoms and duchies of Chirstendom. Second, and more importantly, the High King of Ireland was a position that - strangely enough - was only even notionally recognized _within Ireland itself_. > [@](#): > > Political fragmentation is a side issue to you, but when the question is whether or not a country has any inherent right to exist it’s a key factor. No country has any inherent right to exist. This is a late modern fiction from the minds of men like Talleyrand and Woodrow Wilson. The reason why I mentioned the earlier examples of Greece and Bulgaria is because for centuries these nations had no political sovereignty _at all_, yet will still able to reconstitute themselves as independent nation-states in recent times because the nation did not cease to exist merely because of the actions of Mehmed II and his ilk. > [@](#): > > Is there an Irish nation? Absolutely. Does that nation necessarily encompass the whole island? No. It most certainly does. Regardless of whether there will ever be only one nation-state on the island (I personally doubt that will ever happen, and I really don’t care one way or the other), there is ONLY ONE Irish nation. There is no nation of “Northern Ireland”, a political fiction that didn’t even exist a century ago. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/184 "2010-03-31T16:27:51Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > It most certainly does. Regardless of whether there will ever be only one nation-state on the island (I personally doubt that will ever happen, and I really don’t care one way or the other), there is ONLY ONE Irish nation. There is no nation of “Northern Ireland”, a political fiction that didn’t even exist a century ago. Sure, but now a non-Catholic majority exists in Ulster. The current boundaries reflect that, just as the modern boundaries of Greece and Bulgaria reflect the fact that certain peoples did not want to be part of an independent Greek/Bulgarian state, even if they lived within its historic borders. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/185 "2010-03-31T16:43:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > From having read the descriptions of it, (in detail!), I don’t think you can compare a book like _Hogg_ to _The Color Purple_. _shudder_ Although I do get your point. > > **Really Not All That Bright** (who seems to be living up to his user name), the Celts were there long before the British. They even had their own [language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language). Well, the Celts is a pretty broad spectrum. That’s kinda saying white. The Celts where spread over most nordern Europeen countries - [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) It also refers to language - like [Latin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) the interessting thing is, that the Latin and Celtic area overlap. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/186 "2010-03-31T16:59:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, but now a non-Catholic majority exists in Ulster. The current boundaries reflect that, just as the modern boundaries of Greece and Bulgaria reflect the fact that certain peoples did not want to be part of an independent Greek/Bulgarian state, even if they lived within its historic borders. Agreed. FINALLY. So what are we arguing about, anyway? Aren’t we supposed to be eviscerating **Curtis LeMay** ’s ignorant nonsense? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/187 "2010-03-31T17:01:04Z")
Wait… what? Which part do we agree on? Other than **Curtis** ’ views being ignorant nonsense, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/188 "2010-03-31T17:07:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Really Not All That Bright** (who seems to be living up to his user name), the Celts were there long before the British. Those kinds of comments aren’t allowed outside of the Pit, **Guinastasia**. Please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/189 "2010-03-31T17:07:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wait… what? Which part do we agree on? Other than **Curtis** ’ views being ignorant nonsense, of course. Hmmm… I thought your previous “sure” signalled that you weren’t asserting that there were in fact two nations on the island of Ireland. Likewise, I of course understood your point about there being two nation-states because of historic patterns of settlement since the Elizabethan conquest. Was I mistaken? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/190 "2010-03-31T17:12:28Z")
It signaled that I was not asserting that there was a _historic_ nation of Northern Ireland. I am asserting that there is one now. With that being the case, the views of the citizens of the Republic of Ireland on the future of Northern Ireland (regarding unification) are irrelevant until such a time as the citizens of Northern Ireland favor unification. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/191 "2010-03-31T17:25:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The various states which practiced Catholicism as an established religion notionally acknowledged the Pope as a common overlord. Political fragmentation is a side issue to you, but when the question is whether or not a country has any inherent right to exist it’s a key factor. > > Is there an Irish nation? Absolutely. Does that nation necessarily encompass the whole island? No. > > Thank you for your “contribution”. Perhaps you should read the thread before attempting to participate in it. Sure as hell is the North included in the meaning of Ireland. Are they both Irish - YES. That’s like saying to someone from Noth Korea, that s/he is not Korean. Are they both the same nation politicly - NO So what is Ireland - read [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) or [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_(disambiguation)) Is Jerry Adams Irish? Check it out [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_adams) Who are these [Irish people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people)? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/192 "2010-03-31T17:30:04Z")
His name is _Gerry_ Adams. The fact that you can misspell it while linking to his Wikipedia page is quite impressive, in a sense. The fact that you think linking to a bunch of Wikipedia pages constitutes any sort of contribution to a debate is… well, just odd, really. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/193 "2010-03-31T17:38:46Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > My Lai, anyone…your a really funny guy eh… I’m glad \*you \*find My LAi funny. I, for one, find it horrifying. > [@](#): > > Had to fight? … read below…not as easy to do, then to say where you are NOW What does this even mean? > [@](#): > > So, you do not like let’s say Obamas or Bushes ideas and you are a Soldier - you just suddenly decide “Well, I’m not going to Afghanistan, Kuwait, Irak, Vietnam, Korea”. Yes, that’s the general idea. > [@](#): > > Yet you always have some nut jobs, who want to go to war over peanuts. They’d get nowhere without a complacent majority. > [@](#): > > Not every German[…]. Great history lesson, not that I needed it. How does it change \*anything \*I said? You think I’m unaware of the likely \*consequences \*of doing things my way? > [@](#): > > Did you read Obamas’, Bushe’s or Regan’s biography or political agenda? Why should I? None of them were my president. I am not American. Although yes, I am well aware of the political agendas of your presidents. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/194 "2010-03-31T17:41:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > the Celts were there long before the British. Err, no, the Celts \*were \*the British. Or the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/195 "2010-03-31T17:54:57Z")
The Brit_ons_ were Celts. They weren’t British yet. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/196 "2010-03-31T18:03:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Err, no, the Celts \*were \*the British. Or the other way around. Genetics studies indicate “the Celts” were relative newcomers to the British Isles. In fact, the word “Celt” is being redefined a bit by students of prehistory & ancient history. It’s a fascinating subject but has absolutely nothing to do with the so called “Golden Age of The West.” Where is Our Little OP, to put his thread back on track? He’d mentioned van Gogh as one of the Great Artists of The European Golden Age; some of us pointed out that he wasn’t appreciated until much later. I recommended he check out Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema, a sterling example of High Culture. Could the young fellow have been [distracted](http://images.google.com/images?q=alma+tadema&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=7IyzS8DGLoSBlAem26W8BA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQsAQwAA)? (Products of a Respect & Refined Artiste, some of these images are NSFW if viewed in their full glory.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/197 "2010-03-31T18:06:46Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > …Our Little OP… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/198 "2010-03-31T18:32:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It signaled that I was not asserting that there was a _historic_ nation of Northern Ireland. OK. Agreed then. > [@](#): > > I am asserting that there is one now. Here, it seems, we will have to agree to disagree. I would argue that, amongst other elements, the fact that the [same language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language) is [officially recognized](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foras_na_Gaeilge) on both sides of the border serves to demonstrate that the territory occupied by Northern Ireland is still part of the Irish nation. However, as this is still, [quite obviously](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles) a contentious issue, I won’t pursue this line of argument any further. > [@](#): > > With that being the case, the views of the citizens of the Republic of Ireland on the future of Northern Ireland (regarding unification) are irrelevant until such a time as the citizens of Northern Ireland favor unification. Also fully agreed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/199 "2010-03-31T21:27:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Brit_ons_ were Celts. They weren’t British yet. Did they live on the Island of Great Britain? Then they were British. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/200 "2010-03-31T23:34:09Z")
No, they weren’t. The name Britain didn’t come about until Roman times, and the Celtic peoples who populated the southern two thirds of island before the Romans and Anglo-Saxons are specifically called the Britons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=11)