# The Golden Age of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575 "2010-03-24T03:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/241 "2010-04-04T02:13:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This hypothetical campaign was to scare the Irish nationalists by… bombing other people? Which is exactly what the IRA did if you substitute “unionist” for “nationalist”. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/242 "2010-04-04T02:16:47Z")
Well there was the [Dublin and Monaghan Bombings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings), the single worst day of the Troubles in terms of loss of life and several other bombings. Also, citizens of the Republic were sometimes deliberately targeted by Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries such as the [Miami Showband Killings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Showband_killings). Although the Loyalists/Unionists didn’t target the Republic as often as the IRA targeted Britain it isn’t true to say it never happened. Also, it is germane to point out that while soldiers from Britain patrolled the streets of Northern Ireland, the Irish Defence Forces had no similar presence in Northern Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/243 "2010-04-04T02:19:36Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well there was the [Dublin and Monaghan Bombings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings), the single worst day of the Troubles in terms of loss of life and several other bombings. Also, citizens of the Republic were sometimes deliberately targeted by Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries such as the [Miami Showband Killings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Showband_killings). Although the Loyalists/Unionists didn’t target the Republic as often as the IRA targeted Britain it isn’t true to say it never happened. If you look at it exactly certainly both factions killed various sorts of people-I was speaking of general trends. But to get to the heart of the matter-who do you think was more right in the end: the Nationalists or the Unionists? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/244 "2010-04-04T02:21:43Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > To quote Slartibartfast (from _The Hitch-Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy_): _I’d far rather be happy than right any day._ > > You’re not one of those people who honestly thinks they can take on the Black Helicopters with a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle, are you? Pacifist, remember ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/245 "2010-04-04T02:21:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was the IRA and radical nationalists who killed the most amount of people followed by radical Unionists. Did the British do many foolish and unwise and excessive things? Yes I don’t deny that but it was the IRA who attacked British civilians (while comparatively the Unionist groups did not attack the Irish Republic). So–what does all this have to do with The Golden Age of The West? Why have you abandoned the ideas expressed in your OP? Could it be that the “Gold” was a thin layer of gilt paint on a tottering edifice? Aliens did not land their UFO’s in the great capitals of Europe to trick innocent statesmen into starting the Great War. The weirdo artists did not cause it, either. Europe had, in fact, achieved a certain level of prosperity & social progress at the turn of that century. Then all the best people chose to end it in the useless slaughter that led to a greater war, bloody revolutions & genocides. This evening’s lesson involves poetry. I’m sure Our OP has the background to recognize the story behind [this poem](http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/13677-Wilfred-Owen-The-Parable-Of-The-Old-Man-And-The-Young) by [Wilfred Owen](http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/owen) (1893-1918). > [@](#): > > So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went, > And took the fire with him, and a knife. > And as they sojourned both of them together, > Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father, > Behold the preparations, fire and iron, > But where the lamb for this burnt-offering? > Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps, > And builded parapets and trenches there, > And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son. > When lo! an Angel called him out of heaven, > Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, > Neither do anything to him, thy son. > Behold! Caught in a thicket by its horns, > A Ram. Offer the Ram of Pride instead. > > But the old man would not so, but slew his son, > And half the seed of Europe, one by one. Concerning Ireland, Our OP has been offered some useful cites. Has he bothered to read them? Even better–perhaps he’ll pick up a book or two. (As have many of us, over the years.) Since I’ve chosen a poetic theme tonight, let me recommend the works of [William Butler Yeats](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butler_Yeats). He was a recognized literary figure during that “Golden Age” but his art grew with the new century. (And he was a true lover of Ireland, although it was a troubled affair.) Read [The Second Coming](http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html) (1919) to see his vision of the future–which went far beyond Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/246 "2010-04-04T02:23:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If you look at it exactly certainly both factions killed various sorts of people-I was speaking of general trends. But to get to the heart of the matter-who do you think was more right in the end: the Nationalists or the Unionists? You first: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277488&postcount=106](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277488&postcount=106) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/247 "2010-04-04T02:24:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Which is exactly what the IRA did if you substitute “unionist” for “nationalist”. You specifically referred to unionists attacking the Irish Republic. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was the IRA and radical nationalists who killed the most amount of people followed by radical Unionists. Did the British do many foolish and unwise and excessive things? Yes I don’t deny that but it was the IRA who attacked British civilians (while comparatively the Unionist groups did not attack the Irish Republic). ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/248 "2010-04-04T02:32:25Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > You first: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277488&postcount=106](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277488&postcount=106) I firmly believe the Unionists were right as the majority of those in the counties forming Northern Ireland was Unionist. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You specifically referred to unionists attacking the Irish Republic. And the Unionists did not attack Irish soil nor did they use violence on the scale of the IRA. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/249 "2010-04-04T02:42:10Z")
:smack: I just explained why the Unionists did not attack Irish soil; _there was no point_. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/250 "2010-04-04T02:43:03Z")
And I just explained that they actually did. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300403&postcount=242](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300403&postcount=242) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/251 "2010-04-04T02:55:15Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > And I just explained that they actually did. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300403&postcount=242](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300403&postcount=242) That attack was not on Irish soil. And there was motivation of spiteful, acidic hatred to bomb Irish soil much as that drove the IRA fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/252 "2010-04-04T02:57:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That attack was not on Irish soil. > > And there was motivation of spiteful, acidic hatred to bomb Irish soil much as that drove the IRA fanatics. What are you talking about? Both attacks (the bombings and the other killings) were on Irish soil, although one was in the Republic of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/253 "2010-04-04T03:07:20Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I also thoroughly recommend [_Making Sense Of The Troubles_ by McKittrick and McVea](http://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Troubles-Conflict-Northern/dp/1561310700). It is short and very readable. I’m not **Curtis** , but I ordered this from my library – I could use something new to read. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/254 "2010-04-04T03:16:11Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > What are you talking about? Both attacks (the bombings and the other killings) were on Irish soil, although one was in the Republic of Ireland. When I speak of “Irish” I mean the Irish Republic. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/255 "2010-04-04T03:20:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When I speak of “Irish” I mean the Irish Republic. You are still wrong. Anyway, I’m getting out of this thread. G’night all. **Guinastasia** , I hope you find it as interesting and informative as I did. Although parts of it are very upsetting I should warn you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/256 "2010-04-04T04:01:13Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was the IRA and radical nationalists who killed the most amount of people followed by radical Unionists. Did the British do many foolish and unwise and excessive things? Yes I don’t deny that but it was the IRA who attacked British civilians (while comparatively the Unionist groups did not attack the Irish Republic). Pretty much irrelevant to your claim regarding an approach to civil war. Attacks on Brits in Britain did not push either Orange or Green toward civil war. I am not taking sides on who was “right.” I have pointed out that you have displayed ignorance regarding the origins of the actual fighting in Northern Ireland–something you have confirmed in subsequent posts. I am no fan of the IRA, nor of any of the TLAs beginning with U, but Spain had a Basque separatist party carrying out bombings and assasinations for years without ever approaching a civil war. Making the IRA the sole or primary cause of the troubles indicates an enormous ignorance on a topic about which you are blithely posting absolutist claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/257 "2010-04-04T06:02:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Than is today the Golden Age of say Egypt? The Egyptian state peaked in it’s glory three millennia ago but obviously today the average Egyptian is better off. it’s debatable. poverty, overcrowdedness, a hostile israeli border all play into effect. my point was that the circumstances of ALL the citizens should be taken into account. If the average Egyptian citizen 3000 years ago had an army of slaves, plentiful harvests, and wasn’t beset with plagues, and compared to the average Egyptian citizen now, who (hypothetically) lives in squalor and is starving in garbage shantys (saw a short film documentary of this at an eco-film-festival recently. entire communities who live in the dump, living off what they find) then no. modern egypt is not enjoying a golden age. The trappings of modernity are NOT available to most egyptians so they are NOT better off. Also, of course, the ultimate fudge factor would be personal satisfaction. If the ancient egyptian was thoroughly placated in god-worship and the modern egyption is beset with western envy, then it would affect my “golden age” rating. anyway, the rant i typed earlier was largely in response to your simple, glossy definition of “golden age.” i didn’t really mean for it to sound that all things modern are wonderful and all things from antique are shit. i’m sure modern sudan is NOT going through a golden age right now regardless of how many new products apple comes out with. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/258 "2010-04-04T16:39:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When I speak of “Irish” I mean the Irish Republic. Where do you think Dublin _is_? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/259 "2010-04-06T00:37:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Pretty much irrelevant to your claim regarding an approach to civil war. Attacks on Brits in Britain did not push either Orange or Green toward civil war. > > I am not taking sides on who was “right.” I have pointed out that you have displayed ignorance regarding the origins of the actual fighting in Northern Ireland–something you have confirmed in subsequent posts. > > I am no fan of the IRA, nor of any of the TLAs beginning with U, but Spain had a Basque separatist party carrying out bombings and assasinations for years without ever approaching a civil war. Making the IRA the sole or primary cause of the troubles indicates an enormous ignorance on a topic about which you are blithely posting absolutist claptrap. Basques are a smaller minority compared to the size of the nationalist population in Northern Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/260 "2010-04-06T01:21:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Where do you think Dublin _is_? :dubious: [Georgia](http://www.cityofdublin.org/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=14)