# The Golden Age of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575 "2010-03-24T03:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/21 "2010-03-24T14:03:19Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > In 100 years, when Christian social democratic capitalism is the dominant global culture. :rolleyes: By what method? Genocide? You aren’t going to destroy all the rival religions and secularism and still have a democracy with anything less drastic. Some golden age. Not to mention that a strengthening of Christianity would be associated with the collapse of Western (or any other) civilization. Both because Christianity is evil and stupid in its own right, and because strong religion and an impoverished, ignorant or just plain collapsing society go together. Prosperity and education are a bad environment for religion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/22 "2010-03-24T14:24:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think the Golden Age of Western Civilization was? Personally I believe it’s very pinnacle, epitomie was the _La Belle Epoque_ between the years 1871 and 1914. That age saw the West produce the greatest flowering of arts and literature, the First Globalization (soon followed by World Wars and Communism delaying it for eighty years), and vast progress in science and economic development. I think culture is the one area where the Victorians and Edwardians can claim superiority to us. They had Van Gogh, Jack London, Monet, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, etc. Our art is ultra abstract and post-modern and which considers elephant excrement smeared on an image of the Virgin Mary to be “high class” and much of our modern literature is pornography in reality (ie _Colour Purple_). And yet to think Oswald Spengler spoke of all this ninety years ago at the tail end of the La Belle Epoque. Unlike Mr. Spengler though I believe Western Culture can be salvaged through a revival of cultural conservatism in artistic and literary styles. :dubious: I suppose it’s purely coincidence, and not at all significant to your assessment, that the _Belle Epoque_ you speak of was also the high point of European colonial imperialism and global political hegemony? ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/23 "2010-03-24T14:53:04Z")
My vote is that we need to hurry up and make a time machine and send all the people that yearn for a “simpler, better time” wherever, so they can have it. Curtis gets to go back and live without modern medicine, and with a relatively poor level of general education for the average citizen. I am sure things look great from the castle or manor, write us letters as to how things look from the general population. FriarTed can go to the future where he and his buddies have gotten rid everyone but the good Christians. Leave the rest of us for today, we apparently appreciate it more. (though I will admit that currently things aren’t too rosy, but we’ve got nothing to bitch about in comparison.) ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/24 "2010-03-24T15:28:05Z")
From the Enlightenment to the present. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/25 "2010-03-24T15:30:37Z")
The “Golden Age” comes when the [“Clash of Civilizations”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations) gives way to a true global civilization. We’re getting there slowly. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/26 "2010-03-24T16:25:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think the Golden Age of Western Civilization was? Depends a great deal on what exactly you want the question to mean. Does a Golden Age have to be golden in all parts of western civilization or just some? I’d say that the late 1700’s and early 1800’s were a pretty good time in England and the northern United States, where most people owned their own property and there was a high degree of individual rights and autonomy. On the other hand, the Southern United States and Central and South America were still slave societies and large parts of Europe were still backwards. On the other other hand, now is pretty good time across large portions of the globe, with the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, parts of East Asia, and Israel all enjoying democratic government, human rights, and prosperity unrivaled in history. However, that must be balanced against the fact that the prosperity of the first world is earned partially at the expense of the third world. Millions of factory workers in China and other places labor in subhuman conditions to produce the goods that we take for granted, and we have to support oppressive regimes in the Middle East in order to keep the oil spigots open. And, of course, there’s the issue of environmental destruction. So in any age there’s good stuff and bad stuff happening. While I agree that the art world has become a joke in the last century, I don’t measure golden ages by that criteria. Fine art is generally a concern to only a small slice of the population, namely the upper class, and hence it shouldn’t be used to measure the human experience generally. > [@FriarTed](#): > > In 100 years, when Christian social democratic capitalism is the dominant global culture. It would be nice to think so. I’ve read about how many hundreds of millions of people have converted to Christianity over the past generation in China, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Since the shift of a population to Christianity is always concurrent with increases in human rights and standard of living, I believe that those places will see a great deal of improvement over the next few generations. The progress is already visible in many countries. However, if history teaches anything it’s that we can’t extrapolate far into the future based only on trends that are visible now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/27 "2010-03-24T16:40:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Since the shift of a population to Christianity is always concurrent with increases in human rights and standard of living . . . It wasn’t in Latin America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/28 "2010-03-24T17:54:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think the Golden Age of Western Civilization was? I think the best is yet to come, and we probably won’t live to see it. I always thought the promise of western civilization was in the principles that drove change in early western civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/29 "2010-03-24T18:06:54Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Close. I’d say the 1990s have been the peak so far. The Soviet bloc had collapsed, the West was ascendant, the economy was soaring. Eh - I won’t say you’re wrong, but I do think there’s a stronger case to be made for the present. Gay folks in the US have made _big_ strides over the past twenty years - and the US is big enough that it pretty much has to count heavily in any assessment of “Western Civilization.” If that doesn’t do it for you by itself - the Internet. Niche item for most of the nineties, ubiquitous and transformative today. In particular, the emergence of broadband has done a lot to “shrink” the world. We’ve got problems, many quite serious. But I’d still argue that things are getting better. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/30 "2010-03-24T18:38:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think the Golden Age of Western Civilization was? Personally I believe it’s very pinnacle, epitomie was the _La Belle Epoque_ between the years 1871 and 1914. That age saw the West produce the greatest flowering of arts and literature, the First Globalization (soon followed by World Wars and Communism delaying it for eighty years), and vast progress in science and economic development. I think culture is the one area where the Victorians and Edwardians can claim superiority to us. They had Van Gogh, Jack London, Monet, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, etc. Our art is ultra abstract and post-modern and which considers elephant excrement smeared on an image of the Virgin Mary to be “high class” and much of our modern literature is pornography in reality (ie _Colour Purple_). And yet to think Oswald Spengler spoke of all this ninety years ago at the tail end of the La Belle Epoque. Unlike Mr. Spengler though I believe Western Culture can be salvaged through a revival of cultural conservatism in artistic and literary styles. Did “modern” art \*cause \*WWI? (Blame it on the Symbolists!) And all the other bloody events that followed? What _did_ cause the end of your so-called “Golden Age”? You need to learn a lot more about history, art & literature. (I keep telling myself, 'He’s only thirteen.") ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/31 "2010-03-24T18:44:41Z")
It hasn’t happened yet – liberalization and progression in social tolerance continues apace. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/32 "2010-03-24T18:46:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Personally I believe it’s very pinnacle, epitomie… Gahhhh. I’d vote for 1990 to today. Communism’s beaten, fascism is a spent force, democracy has never been more widely practised. Never before in the entire history of the world has such a large percentage of the world’s population had such freedom and say in their own affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/33 "2010-03-24T18:59:55Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > In 100 years, when Christian social democratic capitalism is the dominant global culture. “Christian” is unlikely, given that it comprises a minority of the world and that the influence of religion generally has been on the wane. The war with the main current enemy of civilization (Islamic fundamentalism) will reinforce this trend, by discrediting theocratic political notions in general (in much the same way that the experience of Naziism discredited “genteel” anti-Semitism). > [@](#): > > Each generation has its pet sins- ours include petty ones like vulgarity, pandering to the lowest common denominator, consumerism and the worst ones of ingratitude/irreverence and considering people personally disposable, whether they be lovers, spouses, or children, born & unborn. In reverse order: 1. “Considering people personally disposable” is far too common a phenomenon to consider it particular to the current generation. 2. Conflating “ingratitude” and “irreverance” is either careless or cynical to a degree that it makes it impossible to take any of your arguments very seriously. Ingratitude is a form of dickish behavior; irreverence is a perfectly rational and justified refusal to be led around by the nose. 3. Complaints about “pandering to the lowest common denominator” and “consumerism” are, at root, elitist resentment that the penny stinkards nowadays get catered to in a way that used to be reserved for their “betters”. 4. “Vulgarity” is a meaningless catch-all-term for “stuff I don’t like”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/34 "2010-03-24T19:18:22Z")
Would you rather live during the decline of a civilization or its ascendancy? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/35 "2010-03-24T20:43:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Would you rather live during the decline of a civilization or its ascendancy? It depends. In many cases, the decline of a civilization will translate to “not strong enough to be as oppressive and genocidal as it used to be”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/36 "2010-03-24T20:46:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It depends. In many cases, the decline of a civilization will translate to “not strong enough to be as oppressive and genocidal as it used to be”. _sigh_ No, the correct answer is . . . never mind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/37 "2010-03-24T21:17:27Z")
I’m still getting my head around the idea that the OP rates London (very good, not great) and Doyle, (amusing, good, but hardly “very” good), as the epitome of quality while ignoring the fact that during that period, their contemporaries were not really regarding Van Gogh and Monet as the epitome of good art, so even if they had it they did not recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/38 "2010-03-24T21:48:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think the Golden Age of Western Civilization was? Personally I believe it’s very pinnacle, epitomie was the _La Belle Epoque_ between the years 1871 and 1914. That age saw the West produce the greatest flowering of arts and literature, the First Globalization (soon followed by World Wars and Communism delaying it for eighty years), and vast progress in science and economic development. I think culture is the one area where the Victorians and Edwardians can claim superiority to us. They had Van Gogh, Jack London, Monet, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, etc. Our art is ultra abstract and post-modern and which considers elephant excrement smeared on an image of the Virgin Mary to be “high class” and much of our modern literature is pornography in reality (ie _Colour Purple_). And yet to think Oswald Spengler spoke of all this ninety years ago at the tail end of the La Belle Epoque. Unlike Mr. Spengler though I believe Western Culture can be salvaged through a revival of cultural conservatism in artistic and literary styles. I don’t usually say this as a criticism, but your question seems disturbingly Tolkienian in both its assumptions and its phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/39 "2010-03-24T22:24:33Z")
Hasn’t happened yet. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/40 "2010-03-25T00:10:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Would you rather live during the decline of a civilization or its ascendancy? So I say I gotta be free… So I say I gotta be me… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=3)