# The Golden Age of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575 "2010-03-24T03:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/101 "2010-03-28T23:55:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What tradition are you speaking of ? Do you mean the limited power of guys like Louis “State” XIV and Napoleon ? Gals like Queen Victoria ? The very democratic Spanish and Portuguese empires maybe ? Perhaps were you thinking of the famous People’s Republic of Prussia ? The smattering of ever-feuding principalities composing the Roman Empire ? Well, they had Prince-electors, so that must mean they elected something or other, QED. Y’know, democratically and stuff. > > Newsflash : in the age of colonization, there were two major Republics in Europe : the Dutch and Venice. That’s it. And even they were, like the United States at first, plutocracies more than anything. > Oh, and of course the French had their Republican stint (read : tyranny by different unelected autocrats) and utterly corrupt Directory before deciding that no, really, emperors it is. > > Strong Western tradition indeed… Queen Victoria didn’t have much real power-by than Britain was a parliamentry democracy. Ever heard of Disraeli and Gladstone and Palmerston? > [@](#): > > Now what caused those, hmm… could it have been… Western meddling and arbitrary drawing of borders to suit their own interests and power games, without any regards for the local populations whatsoever ? I mean, it could be that. > > I’ll grant you it could also be the inevitable result of the inherent barbarism, vulgarity and blood thirst of non-WASP Europeans. Inferior genes and zero culture, all of them. Never said anything about genes. > [@](#): > > Not talking about the US, who as far as I am aware didn’t colonize India, nor Africa. I could be wrong, of course - we obviously don’t operate from the same history book. In other nations too Prime Ministers and Chancellors have come not from aristocratic backgrounds. > [@](#): > > Great. So, what about them castes ? Those that still exist, and we were discussing ? Probably would still exist. > [@](#): > > Finally, we can establish that the Russian Revolution wasn’t in fact a national uprising of the lower classes following centuries of oppression at the hand of a decadent, tyrannical and oppressive Tsarist autocracy (spread among God only knows how many individual factions, from bolsheviks, to Makhno’s anarchists, to college idealists, to half the army and navy, to disenfranchised peasants, to hungry factory workers, to the Cossacks…), but all the devious work of that one guy. Man, was he \*ever \*clever. > > I really wasn’t kidding about you working from an different history book altogether. > > It’s also somewhat amusing how, to you, the Mughals & Marathas were horrible feudal oppressors who enforced a ‘orrible, human rights’ defying caste system, but Tsarist Russia was just A-OK. Hey, at least they weren’t _commies_. Like the Indians, I suppose them uppity kulaks should have just shut up and kept their place, in order to… avoid a century of oppression at the hands of their own State, I guess. Wait, that doesn’t sound right :dubious:. Russia may have reformed under a constitutional monarchy or a social democratic republic (the Menshiviks). Once Rasputin gets knocked off true reforms is inevitable. > [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, while I agree with nothing else he has to say, Curtis is kind of right about WW1. > > Unlike Hitler, Wilhelm and his generals were not conquerors, and they had no interest in making major changes to the map of Europe. If they had won at the Marne and taken Paris, there probably would have been a repeat of 1870 - the French would have handed over a few choice colonies in Africa or Indochina in return for a full German retreat, Russia would have handed over a few tracks of land in Poland or the Ukraine for a peace treaty of its own, Britain would have realized that there was no percentage in fighting a Continental war, and the Great Game would have continued for a few more decades until the next crisis. > > In other words, the last thing the Germans wanted was to actually conquer France or Russia - just as the Allies had no interest in conquering Germany in return. Exactly > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hell, we don’t even have to go as far away as India – look at what Britain’s done to Ireland for centuries? Since what – the 12th century? And Britain’s been kissing Irish arse since Irish independence. The British gave all the majority Independence areas to Ireland but fanatics still want all of Ireland including the majority Unionist ones. Spengler did not make any really specific predictions (ie the stock market will rise in year x or party x will win the election in country x) but made note of general trends all of which has borne out. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/102 "2010-03-29T00:32:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And Britain’s been kissing Irish arse since Irish independence. The British gave all the majority Independence areas to Ireland but fanatics still want all of Ireland including the majority Unionist ones. Kissing Irish arse how? The British government provided subsidies for the nakedly sectarian statelet that was Northern Ireland from the 1920s until the 1970s. While the majority of people on this island do not support a united Ireland through the use of physical force, a majority of the population of the whole island supports unification in a 32 county republic. Apart from anything else, in these days of the European Union it strikes me as bizarre that in a land area as small as Ireland, there are two different administrations, currencies etc. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/103 "2010-03-29T00:35:28Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Kissing Irish arse how? > > The British government provided subsidies for the nakedly sectarian statelet > that was Northern Ireland from the 1920s until the 1970s. While the majority of people on this island do not support a united Ireland through the use of physical force, a majority of the population of the whole island supports unification in a 32 county republic. Apart from anything else, in these days of the European Union it strikes me as bizarre that in a land area as small as Ireland, there are two different administrations, currencies etc. The majority of Northern Irishmen are Protestant Unionists who has wanted to remain with the UK. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/104 "2010-03-29T00:45:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The majority of Northern Irishmen are Protestant Unionists who has wanted to remain with the UK. And how does this answer my question? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/105 "2010-03-29T01:05:03Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > And how does this answer my question? Logically they should be with who they want to be which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Also I’m an Anglophile who supports the adoption of British spelling and terminology and thinks Britain’s recent humiliations in the Falklands and elsewhere are unacceptable ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/106 "2010-03-29T01:07:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Logically they should be with who they want to be which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Also I’m an Anglophile who supports the adoption of British spelling and terminology and thinks Britain’s recent humiliations in the Falklands and elsewhere are unacceptable Do you think Vermont or Texas should be independent? What about the Basque Country? What about Kurds in Turkey, should they be allowed declare independence? For that matter did the US South have the right to secede? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/107 "2010-03-29T03:24:56Z")
What did the death of Rasputin have to do with a constitutional monarchy? The Tsar was dead set against any form of a constitution. THAT was what the revolution was all about. Again, Lenin was IN NO WAY INVOLVED IN THE REVOLUTION. He wasn’t even THERE when it took place. Perhaps once Nicholas died and his son took the throne – but it was unlikely Alexei would have survived – hemophilia and all. And how many rebellions did Ireland have to organize to gain its independence? Ever hear of the Easter Uprising? Éamon de Valera? Michael Collins? Fenians? The Black and Tans? Battle of the Boyne?:rolleyes: BTW, Disraeli, Gladstone, and Palmerston were all enthusiastic imperialists. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/108 "2010-03-29T11:27:46Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The only thing Spengler _wasn’t_ wrong about, perhaps, was the spelling of his own name. Joseph Tainter offers a devastating critique of Spengler in his The Collapse of Complex Societies. It’s not a great book, but he is absolutely dead on about Spengler. > > Curtis, I would submit that on reflection, you might change your mind about the Fin de Siecle. I also love the period, but not for the reasons you do. It was one of the craziest times in European history. > > [Baudelaire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudelaire) > [Rimbaud](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rimbaud) > [Verlaine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Verlaine) > > And of course, the craziest of the crazy. [Alfred Jarry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Jarry). > > And my favorite piece of fin de siecle decadence, [absinthe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe). > > I think I’m going to decant myself a nice Kubler 53 and dream of European decadence. Another fan of [The Decadence](http://eye-candy-for-bibliophiles.blogspot.com/2008/08/dreamers-of-decadence.html) here. While the official majority believed European Civilization had reached a pinnacle of social & technological achievement, the absinthe-drinkers, hashish smokers & wearers of green carnations felt the serious disquiet beneath the placid exterior. And expressed their visions in literature & the visual arts. These prophets, of course, stood for everything our Little OP finds abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/109 "2010-03-29T13:20:51Z")
I’d actually be interested to see how many other pro-Colonialism/Imperialism supporters there are on the SDMB; I know there are a few (including myself), but threads like this do rather seem to make it pretty clear that support for Colonialism or Imperialism isn’t a permitted viewpoint in these parts… ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/110 "2010-03-29T14:36:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Plus you can buy titty mags in any street corner 7-11. It’s a goddammed Golden Age, I tells ya. Not where I’m from! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/111 "2010-03-29T15:10:17Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’d actually be interested to see how many other pro-Colonialism/Imperialism supporters there are on the SDMB; I know there are a few (including myself), but threads like this do rather seem to make it pretty clear that support for Colonialism or Imperialism isn’t a permitted viewpoint in these parts… 19th century European imperialism and colonialism wasn’t worse or much difference from Assyrian imperialism, or Persian imperialism, Greek, Phoenician, Roman imperialism, Arab imperialism, Turkish imperialism, Aztec, Zulu, etc. On the whole it was much to be preferred for the conquered people than many of the other. Other than ancient Greek and the age of discovery where Europeans suddenly explored the world to its most isolated and far off corners and told the natives, I’ll propose renaissance Italy asw the golden age – small city-states always bickering and fighting over the most obscure details and with artist of small cities with egos the size of nations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/112 "2010-03-29T15:38:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > 19th century European imperialism and colonialism wasn’t worse or much difference from Assyrian imperialism, or Persian imperialism, Greek, Phoenician, Roman imperialism, Arab imperialism, Turkish imperialism, Aztec, Zulu, etc. On the whole it was much to be preferred for the conquered people than many of the other. > > Other than ancient Greek and the age of discovery where Europeans suddenly explored the world to its most isolated and far off corners and told the natives, I’ll propose renaissance Italy asw the golden age – small city-states always bickering and fighting over the most obscure details and with artist of small cities with egos the size of nations. What makes that a “golden age”? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/113 "2010-03-29T15:51:02Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’d actually be interested to see how many other pro-Colonialism/Imperialism supporters there are on the SDMB; I know there are a few (including myself), but threads like this do rather seem to make it pretty clear that support for Colonialism or Imperialism isn’t a permitted viewpoint in these parts… Unlike certain other posters though you can comfortably and succinctly argue your point of view. You can hold your own in these debates and I don’t agree with the entirety of your viewpoint but I think your posts are interesting and valuable to the debates. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/114 "2010-03-29T16:23:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Had the Marathas or Moguls ruled India the ideas of democracy and caste equality would have been laughed at or worse. Ethnocentric conjecture. > [@](#): > > Curious how leftists say “MYOB” when caste systems exist but not when things such as health care is concerned. Because there’s a logical equivalence between looking to other socieites to see what one’s own might emulate and telling other societies at the point of a gun how to run theirs. :rolleyes: And I’m no leftist, but you certianly do present yourself as a fascist. > [@](#): > > First of all European class systems were rather more mobile than Hindu ones and by modern times they have mostly disappeared. You know nothing of contemporary Inidan society. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > India did not unlike the West have a tradition of limited power or democracy-democracy might have come but not for many, many centuries. India, unlike the West, did not have a tradition of invading every continent on Earth to murder, rape, and plunder. I can play this game all night… > [@](#): > > No. Decolonization probably was inevitable but had it happened more wisely India may have remained united and not subject to the massacres between the Hindu and Muslim populations. Nice way to sidestep how the British themselves were responsible for much of that blood-letting during the Partition. My father was there and saw it with his own eyes, and told me what he saw. Again, educate yourself (from someone other than Spengler or Kipling) before speaking about how benevolent the British were in India. > [@](#): > > If France falls in 1914 Germany will concentrate all it’s energy on Russia. Russia will either see defeat is inevitable or be defeated by 1916 or such. Also the Bolsheviks took power because the Germans sent Lenin to Russia to cause revolution. In a shorter war such a thing would not have happened. Yeah, those crafty Germans are the ones who let the Commies set up shop in Russia.:rolleyes: You know, there was [another](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution) revolution before the October one, and there were a few godless Marxists among their ranks. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And Britain’s been kissing Irish arse since Irish independence. The British gave all the majority Independence areas to Ireland but fanatics still want all of Ireland including the majority Unionist ones. Except for that time when Winnie essentuially [said](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450513a.html) “You bog-dwellers are lucky we didn’t kick your arse again.” The actual quote: _“This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr. de Valera or perish forever from the earth. **However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, we never laid a violent hand upon them, which at times would have been quite easy and quite natural** , and left the de Valera Government to frolic with the German and later with the Japanese representatives to their heart’s content.”_ Fuck Churchill, that imperialist scumbag. If there’s a hell, I hope he’s burning in it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/115 "2010-03-29T16:29:09Z")
Quality of life has never been higher. Racism has never been less prevalent. Life expectancies have never been as long. People have never been so educated. Science has never been so advanced. In every measurable way I can think of, it’s unquestionably this very moment right here. \*advanced at a faster rate? Surely, but that’s not the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/116 "2010-03-29T16:33:45Z")
I’m still confused as to how Toni Alice Walker is considered pornography. Is it the sex? the profanity? does Norman Mailer get lumped in here, too? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/117 "2010-03-29T17:52:56Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > You know, there was [another](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Russian_Revolution) revolution before the October one, and there were a few godless Marxists among their ranks. Also, there were two Russian Revolutions in 1917: One in [February,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution_of_1917) one in [October](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution) (Old Style; March and November Gregorian). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/118 "2010-03-29T19:06:53Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Kissing Irish arse how? > > a majority of the population of the whole island supports unification in a 32 county republic. Your logic is stunning. Thank you for this insight. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/119 "2010-03-29T19:12:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > a majority of the population of the whole island supports unification in a 32 county republic. So what? The views of the people of Eire are immaterial, except in the context of a situation where the people of Northern Ireland have already voted for independence from the UK and/or unification. You might as well say India has the right to annex Pakistan because a majority of the combined population of both countries thinks it should. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/120 "2010-03-29T19:45:01Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m still confused as to how Toni Alice Walker is considered pornography. Is it the sex? the profanity? does Norman Mailer get lumped in here, too? Not to mention **Curtis** ’s anglophilia leads to him misspelling the title. (Hint, **Curtis** , just because you like using British spelling, it’s STILL not proper to use it for official titles and names. So it’s NOT _ColoUr Purple_.) **BrainGlutton** – true, but the one most people speak of is the official one, in February – the one that overthrew the Tsar and knocked down how many centuries of absolute monarchist rule. However, most people ALSO think that the Bolshies caused that one, when they didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=7)