# The Golden Age of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575 "2010-03-24T03:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/161 "2010-03-30T14:28:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I hope not. They fought for an evil cause, and should never be regarded with anything but loathing. So all these drafted US Soldiers in Vietnam wanted to be there? And used things like napalm just for fun. The individuell German Soldiers in WW2, was fighting because they had to and not because they believed in what Hitler said. Sure there where a good few, but certainly not all Germans where “evil”. However, once the war started, you where drafted…if you wanted or not. Someone shoots at you, you fire back - regardless of what the war is for or about. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/162 "2010-03-30T17:20:12Z")
**Der Trihs** , you’re starting to sound like a cartoon character. **Really Not All That Bright** – are you trying to imply that the Irish as a people do not exist separately – that they are simply a part of Britain? That they have no right to their freedom, regardless of centuries of oppression? (Or even that they’re actually British themselves?) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/163 "2010-03-30T17:39:16Z")
I am not trying to imply anything. I am stating that the hypothetical united country of Ireland never actually existed. There were Irish kingdoms, but no Kingdom of Ireland, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/164 "2010-03-30T17:41:58Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :smack: Of course, not. That’s why I differentiated between _nation_ and _nation-state_. You’ve missed the point. It’s not that there was no nation prior to English occupation; it’s that there wasn’t _one_ nation. There were lots of little fiefdoms. The only thing they had in common was the law. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/165 "2010-03-30T17:50:39Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > So all these drafted US Soldiers in Vietnam wanted to be there? Well, they were too chicken to make the run to Canada… > [@](#): > > And used things like napalm just for fun. My Lai, anyone? > [@](#): > > The individuell German Soldiers in WW2, was fighting because they had to and not because they believed in what Hitler said. No one “had to” fight. Hitler was a very popular leader - anything else is revisionism. > [@](#): > > However, once the war started, you where drafted…if you wanted or not. Someone shoots at you, you fire back - regardless of what the war is for or about. You make it sound like such an inevitability - but it’s not. There is \*always \*the choice to shoot or not. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/166 "2010-03-30T18:58:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > One wonders if **Curtis** has even READ _The Color Purple_. :dubious: I suspect someone told him that there are lesbians in it. (And if 'The Color Purple" is his metric for porn, it’s a damn good thing he was warned away from ‘Hogg.’ Kid’s head would have asploded.) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/167 "2010-03-30T19:07:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am not trying to imply anything. I am stating that the hypothetical united country of Ireland never actually existed. There were Irish kingdoms, but no Kingdom of Ireland, as it were. > **[Kingdom of Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Ireland)** > > Kingdom of Ireland (Early Modern Irish: Ríoghacht Éireann; Modern Irish: Ríocht na hÉireann, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ənˠ ˌɾˠiːxt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ\]) was a dependency of England from 1542 to 1707, and subsequently Great Britain from 1707 to 1800. It was ruled by the monarchs of England and then of Great Britain in pe... ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/168 "2010-03-30T19:09:56Z")
You know what I mean. Henry VIII hardly counts. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/169 "2010-03-30T21:06:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There is \*always \*the choice to shoot or not. I can picture it; I’m behind my MG42, in front of me hordes of Russians are jumping off the T34’s. My finger is on the trigger and I think "hmmm, I have a choice here.. " ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/170 "2010-03-30T22:46:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’ve missed the point. It’s not that there was no nation prior to English occupation; it’s that there wasn’t _one_ nation. There were lots of little fiefdoms. The only thing they had in common was the law. Oh, for fuck’s sake. No - _you_ are the one who has missed the point. For the third time - I am **not** referring to political sub-divisions. Do you even know how a [nation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) is commonly defined? _“A nation is a grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government.”_ There was not more than one nation of people on the island of Ireland prior to English occupation. There was only one - Ireland! A grouping of people who shared a common [culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick), [language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language), and [ethnic origin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people). As far as having a common history, that is an admittedly more contentious assertion, due to the political fragmentation of the various tribes, but even there the various tribes at least notionally recognized a common [overlord](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/171 "2010-03-31T00:45:15Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I can picture it; > > I’m behind my MG42, in front of me hordes of Russians are jumping off the T34’s. > My finger is on the trigger and I think "hmmm, I have a choice here.. " I agree with **Mr. Dibble** , a body had ample room to make his choice \*before \*the [del]banzai[/del]Hurraaaaaah charge. What about basic training ? Or the train ride to the Eastern Front ? Or the army camp on the Eastern front before the Russian attack ? What about before all of that, around the time of the Anschluss or the invasion of Poland and France ? Couldn’t you have run away to Switzerland or Turkey then ? Sure, Nazi Germany probably didn’t recognize conscientious objectors, draftees are watched for such antics, and deserters that were caught were sent to work camps or summarily shot (especially as the war dragged on and it started to look like defeat). So, it’s a bleak choice. But it’s \*still \*a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/172 "2010-03-31T00:57:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not here, they didn’t. It was a straight-up land grab to build a resupply station for the India run. The locals were just an obstacle to the Dutch. Sure, they passed them some pretty beads for sheep, but that was completely incidental. Hey, even I agree that South Africa was pretty messed up and the locals mistreated during Colonialism and long afterwards, too. > [@](#): > > I’ve previously dealt with the other neocolonialist crap you spew in the Pit, at length. And believe it or not, I do respect your views on the subject. > [@Kobal2](#): > > So, it’s a bleak choice. But it’s \*still \*a choice. Legally, “Do what I say or die” is not considered a “choice” in most civilised countries. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/173 "2010-03-31T02:09:12Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > I suspect someone told him that there are lesbians in it. > > (And if 'The Color Purple" is his metric for porn, it’s a damn good thing he was warned away from ‘Hogg.’ Kid’s head would have asploded.) From having read the descriptions of it, (in detail!), I don’t think you can compare a book like _Hogg_ to _The Color Purple_. _shudder_ Although I do get your point. **Really Not All That Bright** (who seems to be living up to his user name), the Celts were there long before the British. They even had their own [language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/174 "2010-03-31T07:56:24Z")
Odd how I didn’t see masses of americans leave the US then after it started a war of agression. Guess everybody there has made his/her choice and should be judged accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/175 "2010-03-31T09:02:47Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Odd how I didn’t see masses of americans leave the US then after it started a war of agression. Don’t be silly. Were tens of millions of people supposed to go to Canada? And “America love it or leave it” is a _right wing_ bugaboo, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/176 "2010-03-31T10:19:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be silly. Were tens of millions of people supposed to go to Canada? > > And “America love it or leave it” is a _right wing_ bugaboo, anyway. So maybe there’s more to this having a choice thing? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/177 "2010-03-31T11:11:28Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So maybe there’s more to this having a choice thing? I have no idea what point or accusation or excuse you are trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/178 "2010-03-31T12:41:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I have no idea what point or accusation or excuse you are trying to make. What I am trying to say is that “having a choice not to shoot” is not that black and white. At what point do you say “no!”. Just before pulling the trigger? Before the engagement? Before shipment to the front? When being drafted ? When war is declared? Like **Kobal2** , said there are a lot of points where you could say no, in theory, but there is a lot of grey here. In hindsight it is easy to say that this soldier or that should have said no before being in the fireline but at that moment in the past it maybe wasn’t as clear as now what was going to happen after he reported for the draft. Clear enough to put his life (and family) on the line. I would say a good recognisable point to say no! would be an actual warcrime about to happen. Like shooting prisoners, or bombing civilians. Still takes enormous guts and if you are not there because you dodged the draft, you are not there to prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/179 "2010-03-31T13:29:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, they were too chicken to make the run to Canada…My Lai, anyone?No one “had to” fight. Hitler was a very popular leader - anything else is revisionism.You make it sound like such an inevitability - but it’s not. There is \*always \*the choice to shoot or not. My Lai, anyone…your a really funny guy eh… Had to fight? … read below…not as easy to do, then to say where you are NOW > [@Kobal2](#): > > I agree with **Mr. Dibble** , a body had ample room to make his choice \*before \*the [del]banzai[/del]Hurraaaaaah charge. What about basic training ? Or the train ride to the Eastern Front ? Or the army camp on the Eastern front before the Russian attack ? What about before all of that, around the time of the Anschluss or the invasion of Poland and France ? Couldn’t you have run away to Switzerland or Turkey then ? > > Sure, Nazi Germany probably didn’t recognize conscientious objectors, draftees are watched for such antics, and deserters that were caught were sent to work camps or summarily shot (especially as the war dragged on and it started to look like defeat). > > So, it’s a bleak choice. But it’s \*still \*a choice. So, you do not like let’s say Obamas or Bushes ideas and you are a Soldier - you just suddenly decide “Well, I’m not going to Afghanistan, Kuwait, Irak, Vietnam, Korea”. Yet you always have some nut jobs, who want to go to war over peanuts. Not every German believed at the time in the stuff that the Nazi’s told - but there was also no google and the world was much smaller (not physically of cos). Fritz in his small village was pissed about the French taking all his stuff away, the Versaille treaty rendered Germany incapable of ever coming out of the mess – so they had a democracy and it was all going down the drain. Extremist groups formed because they saw a chance in the chaos, like Communism. Hitler sounded, with his propaganda crap reasonable enough to clean up the mess… People like Hindenburg, thought, they could control him and failed. Nobody actually read his book “Mein Kampf”, not a lot of people anyhow, until much later when he already was in power and all his nut jobs supported him… there was no Barns and Nobel everywhere, neither was Amazon. Did you read Obamas’, Bushe’s or Regan’s biography or political agenda? However, it **looked** like Hitler did a good job, he build up the infrastructure up – created work, which means food on the table. So, even the people who did not like his ideas just let him do until they realised, that he was growing racist nut jobs, at which point it was to bloody late to do anything about it. Your kids where brainwashed and believed the crap the Nazis where saying. The people who where against them or trouble makers where put into “Schutzhaft” (Protection), kinda like Guantanamo Bay. After the war escalated and your wife, kids, parents are killed or bombed the crap out of - You as a single individual say “Please, what is this shooting all about? Can we not sit down and have dinner instead?” This might work at home, but not politically. It’s the same thing as ignoring the current economic climate, just because I say – Paddy Power is not unemployed, does not change the fact that he has NO job and no income – but is my choice to do so. I can believe in the earth being flat aswell or pink Unicorns – it is my choice. But when the government decides there is war, then there is war, regardless what you or I think about it. Great choice – So, you do not want to defend you country? You are a traitor? You are an enemy of the state? Well, we got work camps or a grave for you, boy. Great choice. Needless to say, some Germans actually picked this choice. Also the Jews did not leave and resisted, yes, these people where Germans as well, so where the Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma, Jehova Witnesses, etc… Lot’s of Germans actually did leave Germany and some where [refused entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars#World_War_II) by the other nations. Ask the poor Jews who got send back at the Swiss borders – to their sure death –neutrality is great? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575/180 "2010-03-31T14:16:19Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > What I am trying to say is that “having a choice not to shoot” is not that black and white. > [@Doughbag](#): > > After the war escalated and your wife, kids, parents are killed or bombed the crap out of - You as a single individual say “Please, what is this shooting all about? Can we not sit down and have dinner instead?” > > Great choice – So, you do not want to defend you country? You are a traitor? You are an enemy of the state? Well, we got work camps or a grave for you, boy. > Great choice. To amplify these points, it should be stated that the vast mass of ordinary Germans, aside from the relatively few psychopaths in the Waffen SS and elsewhere who actually lusted for battle and conquest, were conscripted and grudgingly did what they saw as their duty, as had their fathers in WW1. From 1942 onwards, these actions were increasingly in _defense_ of their own country. For them pacifism was not merely a risky personal strategy but also a personal failing as well, to protect their families and their communities. I have previously mentioned the example of [Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz-Wolfgang_Schnaufer), who flew his missions not on the front-lines of a war of aggression, but rather in direct defense of his homeland. On any given night mission, if he failed to down that Halifax or Lancaster bearing down on any one of a hundred German cities, that would mean the difference between children being crushed or burned to death, or living through the night. This is _not_ meant as an apology for the evil done by the war of conquest initiated by Hitler and his cronies, but rather to contrast with the cartoon-like views presented by some who see simply: Axis soldier = evil; Allied soldier = good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-golden-age-of-the-west/533575.md?page=10)