# The Goliath Cometh **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108 "2000-04-21T18:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/1 "2000-04-22T05:45:00Z")
In response to [pashley’s challenge](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001765-3.html), I am nominating myself for the _mano a mano_ debate. I realize that there are several posters in the original debate with seniority; however, I wish to elicit responses from pashley. Since pashley wishes to establish rules for the debate, I submit the following: [list=1][li]All points presented **must** be addressed.[/li][li]Upon the submission of a successful rebuttal, the “losing” party **must** formally concede. Concessions are to be posted on a point by point basis.[/li][li]This clause should be unnecessary, but personal attacks are not permitted. If you feel that this stipulation cannot be heeded, please request that this thread be moved to the Pit.[/list=1][/li]Given the nature of the challenge, I request that pashley present evidence for the existence of god. I think that a response to the post below would be a good starting point; however, if you wish to introduce other alleged evidence, you may do so. quote: Originally posted by Nen: **Pashley** : Please consider the following: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Pashley: > > 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) Although the example of the electron/anti-election pair contradicts this premise (and premises for an argument should be widely accepted if not true), assume that this premise is true. It has been expressed that if god is, then god must have had a cause. Either all things have a cause, including god, or causality is not implicit in existence, thereby rejecting your premise #1. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Pashley: > 2)The cosmos began to exist. Can energy, space and time exist in singularly or in any combination which excludes one of the three? Is time not a constituent of existence? If you agree, then the concept of beginning, which implies the existence of time before and after the beginning to have relevance, has no meaning. Perhaps you disagree with this argument because it is based on _a priori_ synthetic knowledge. As pointed out by Bertrand Russell, Kant’s proof of _a priori_ synthetic knowledge utilizes _a priori_ synthetic knowledge as premises; therefore, the proof is invalid. Your premise #2 is also asserted as a priori synthetic knowledge. You must either submit a proof for the existence of _a priori_ synthetic knowledge, which I humbly believe to be impossible, or you must refine your concept of beginning. Regardless, your second premise is also rejected. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Pashley: > 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Once again, assuming this statement to be true and that the conclusion follows from the premises, thereby making your argument logically valid (which it is not), how is it necessary that the cause be god? Are there no other possibilities? > [@](#): > > Orginally posted by Pashely: > Arguments? Please see above. I await your rebuttal or retraction of the argument. End quote. You may being, pashley. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/2 "2000-04-22T05:49:00Z")
Um, that’s, “You may _begin_…” ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/3 "2000-04-21T18:05:00Z")
And the stakes? \*\*\*YOUR IMMORTAL SOULS!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!\*\*\* Well, okay, maybe not. Either way, I’ve got some popcorn and since I’m the first one here, I got a good seat… * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _Still not smoking, but away from my meter!_ ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/4 "2000-04-21T18:06:00Z")
**Satan** , first you’ll have to prove that I have an immortal soul to wager! ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/5 "2000-04-21T18:35:00Z")
OK, let’s see which (if any) challeng pashley takes up … Anybody got peanuts? * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/6 "2000-04-21T18:51:00Z")
I think you already have your answer. And he calls US “cowards.” Only a coward finds excuses for not going into a battle _that he said he wanted._ * * * Sig Alert! ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/7 "2000-04-21T20:05:00Z")
**Attention** pashley has agreed to enter the arena. I regret to inform you that the rules of the engagement restrict others from posting to this thread aside from checking in. Please keep these posts free from derisive statements or pashley will cease to participate in the debate. Thank you for your cooperation. End transmission ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/8 "2000-04-21T20:14:00Z")
Checking in. And passing the URL along to my brother, the ordained and practicing Methodist minister and graduate of Duke University Seminary (M.Div.). He’ll be interested. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/9 "2000-04-21T20:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by andros: > \*\*Checking in. > > And passing the URL along to my brother, the ordained and practicing Methodist minister and graduate of Duke University Seminary (M.Div.). He’ll be interested. > > -andros-\*\* Here we go already with the stupid posts. But thanks Nen for showing some chastising. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/10 "2000-04-21T20:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > Here we go already with the stupid posts. I fail to see how the post in question was stupid. It was my understanding that check-in posts were acceptable. Are they no longer? If you are referring to the clause which followed, I frequently forward the url’s of interesting posts to friends and do not find the noting of such an act offensive. If you find the post offensive, ignore it as **tomndebb** recommended in the Cosmos thread. Please don’t disengage before we have started. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/11 "2000-04-21T22:11:00Z")
Let’s “get giggy wit it”, as the young urban African-American males say in their memorable works… (And may I say the manner in which you have carried yourself so far is most agreeable and professional, thank-you. Why can’t more people act like this?) I have run out of time today, but I WILL address your point tomorrow! I promise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/12 "2000-04-22T02:35:00Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Nen said: > [@](#): > > pashley has agreed to enter the arena. I regret to inform you that the rules of the engagement restrict others from posting to this thread aside from checking in. Please keep these posts free from derisive statements or pashley will cease to participate in the debate. Thank you for your cooperation. Just a quick note from the guy with the Moderator Hat. We (Gaudere and I) will _not_ be responsible for enforcing the “rules” of this debate. It will be up to the individuals of this message board to abide or not abide by your request. I just wanted to make that clear. However, we _will_ enforce the normal rules in this thread, just like any other. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/13 "2000-04-22T06:45:00Z")
As Spiritus watches this spectacle unfold, an image comes to his mind. An image unasked for yet undeniable. _A small child sits at a chess board. The child laughs and giggles as he grabs a black knight and swings it like a wrecking ball through the white pieces. As each pawn, rook and bishop falls, l’enfant terrible swells with self-importance. Puffing his chest out he decares, “I can beat anyone at chess. Who dares to play me? I have defeated grandmasters. I have solved conundrums that Big Blue could not puzzle in a trillion clock-cycles. I challenge all, for my chess is stronger than your crane style!”_ The image dissolves. Was it a foretelling? Does it contain interwoven layers of Jungian archetypes? Is it the product of spicy wings and old Jackie Chan movies? Only time will tell. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/14 "2000-04-22T12:27:00Z")
Spiritus, I would consider that as more than “checking in” … and it could be construed as offensive to at least one of the “official” participants. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/15 "2000-04-22T14:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by JonF: > \*\*Spiritus, I would consider that as more than “checking in” … and it could be construed as offensive to at least one of the “official” participants. > > \*\* You’re right, it is, and this is what i was talking about regarding the childish, immature comments. But this is what we can expect from Spiritus Mundi. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/16 "2000-04-22T14:27:00Z")
Hmmm. What time does the show start? ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/17 "2000-04-22T14:30:00Z")
Nen, It would be probabley more efficent to start with the premise that the universe _had a beginning_; for if it did not, then it had no causing agent, it just ‘always was’, and the Uncaused Causer premise is moot. If I hold that _it did_in fact, have a beginning, a point in time in which it came into being, I am at least afforded then the opportunity to make the case for a causing agent. Do you agree to start here? * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/18 "2000-04-22T14:31:00Z")
Still waiting to see Paeshrus say something aside from an insult which has nothing to do with this debate… * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _Still not smoking, but away from my meter!_ ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/19 "2000-04-23T05:01:00Z")
::Nen enters the room, makes cursory apologies for his tardiness, and requests everyone take their seats:: pashley, if you’d like to change the starting point, that’s okay with me. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > It would be probabley more efficent to start with the premise that the universe _had a beginning_; for if it did not, then it had no causing agent, it just ‘always was’, and the Uncaused Causer premise is moot. Whether or not the universe was causally related in its origin is of primary importance to the argument. You’ll have to argue that the universe had a beginning. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > If I hold that _it did_in fact, have a beginning, a point in time in which it came into being, I am at least afforded then the opportunity to make the case for a causing agent. As I mentioned in the OP, you’ll have to more clearly define this concept of “beginning.” A point in time is irrelevant without a frame of reference. Time cannot exist outside of existence; therefore, utilizing time to define the “beginning” of existence is unacceptable. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > Do you agree to start here? Yes, but you’ll have to address the above points. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/20 "2000-04-23T05:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Still waiting to see Paeshrus say something aside from an insult which has nothing to do with this debate… He did, which we can assume was a simulpost. Now can we back out and let them have at it? * * * jrf [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108.md?page=2)