# The Goliath Cometh **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108 "2000-04-21T18:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/21 "2000-04-22T18:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by David B: > Just a quick note from the guy with the Moderator Hat. We (Gaudere and I) will _not_ be responsible for enforcing the “rules” of this debate. It will be up to the individuals of this message board to abide or not abide by your request. I just wanted to make that clear. Now David, do you honestly think I would attempt to impose a greater workload on you and Gaudere? I think the two of you have your hands full as it is. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/22 "2000-04-22T18:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Nen said: > As I mentioned in the OP, you’ll have to more clearly define this concept of “beginning.” A point in time is irrelevant without a frame of reference. Time cannot exist outside of existence; therefore, utilizing time to define the “beginning” of existence is unacceptable. Fifteen billion years ago, give or take five billion years, when the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus; AKA, the Big Bang. Would that work for you? If not, would you like to suggest a defintion? ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/23 "2000-04-22T18:47:00Z")
pashley: What happened before the Big Bang? You can begin here if you’d like. Present your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/24 "2000-04-22T19:02:00Z")
Point one: Are you agreeing, in fact, that the cosmos had a beginning? you do not agree, as Russell neatly put it, " . . . The universe is just there, and that’s all." ? (I don’t mean to be trivial, this is crucial though). * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/25 "2000-04-22T19:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > Are you agreeing, in fact, that the cosmos had a beginning? No, but if for the sake of argument you wish to establish the BB as the beginning, you may do so temporarily. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/26 "2000-04-22T19:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Nen: > \*\* No, but if for the sake of argument you wish to establish the BB as the beginning, you may do so temporarily.\*\* Well Nen, this leaves me in can’t win situation. If I do “win”, you might claim not to believe in the BB. It is crucial we come to terms with this. Is it not true that A) the cosmos had a beginning, or B)it did NOT have a beginning? I hold that _it did_, in fact, have a beginning, and am willing to allow the BB theory as the “starting point”. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/27 "2000-04-22T19:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > If I do “win”, you might claim not to believe in the BB. I believe in the BB insofar as there is a plethora of evidence to support the occurence thereof; however, there is no evidence to formulate a theory of what, if anything, existed prior to the BB. All theories that could be offered would be pure postulation. For that reason, the BB is an acceptable point of origin for the known universe. Please continue. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/28 "2000-04-22T20:51:00Z")
I would like to offer my services as a moderator. Without taking sides, if the debate appears to be at an impasse, perhaps both parties would accept me as a neutral third party to try to help find agreement so as keep things moving. I make no secret of my sympathies in this debate. However, perhaps I have built up enough of a reputation for intellectual honesty and integrity that both parties will accept my neutrality for the purposes of mediation. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/29 "2000-04-22T21:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by SingleDad: > However, perhaps I have built up enough of a reputation for intellectual honesty and integrity that both parties will accept my neutrality for the purposes of mediation. I have no qualms with that proposal. Thank you for offering your assistance. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/30 "2000-04-22T22:41:00Z")
No, SingleDad is not to be a part of this. He’s made his loathing for me known on more than one occassion. Nen, you do a fine job with the moderation. I ran out of time today to post, busy at work today! I did start something though, and will hopefully post tommorrow. Happy Easter! * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/31 "2000-04-22T23:43:00Z")
While the debate is on a temporary hiatus, I’d just like to state for the record that my brother is indeed a 1993 graduate of the Duke University Theological Seminary in Durham, North Carolina, holds a Master’s Degree in Divinity, was ordained in 1993 by the General Council of the United Methodist Church, made and Elder of the Church byt he same council in 1995, and now leads as senior pastor a congregation of several hundred in the southwestern United States. After some thought, I have decided not to take offense at the contention that my above post was “stupid.” After all, Patrick may simply have regarded as “stupid” my checking in per Nen’s suggestion, rather than the mention that my brother might be interested in the discussion. Carry on, and please accept my sincere apologies for the interruption. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/32 "2000-04-23T02:21:00Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Nen said: > [@](#): > > Now David, do you honestly think I would attempt to impose a greater workload on you and Gaudere? I think the two of you have your hands full as it is. That’s fine – I just wanted everything to be clear so nobody would either A) come running to us because people might not follow the “rules” laid down in this thread or, B) Complain to us that there are special “rules” for this thread. Hopefully, everybody is clear on this now. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/33 "2000-04-23T02:48:00Z")
As you wish, Patrick. I won’t intrude further. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/34 "2000-04-23T06:51:00Z")
Singledad, Thanks for keeping out. It’s not that you wouldn’t make a good moderator, but you and Pash have, shall we say, a “history.” I think your active presence might turn a potentially interesting debate into more vitriol, through no fault of your own. That said it would be nice to have a moderator acceptable to both sides. Where’s Polycarp when you really need him? * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/35 "2000-04-26T05:08:00Z")
On 04/24/00 at 12:45PM pashley said: > [@](#): > > I…won’t be posting anything [in the Goliath thread] until tommorow. Is there some rush?! There’s no rush, but it is difficult to have a one-sided debate. Will you be posting today? I’m bumping up the thread as a reminder. [bump] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/36 "2000-04-26T00:17:00Z")
_tip-toes in_ I _knew_ he wouldn’t participate. _tip-toes out_ ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/37 "2000-04-26T01:53:00Z")
I apologize for requesting everyone’s lack of participation in this thread. Thank you for your cooperation. That said, I sincerely hope everyone reads this post. May this day live long in the Pit. On the first day (04/21/00): [ul]At 9:56AM pashley issued a challenge. [li]At 12:45PM I created this thread in response to the challenge.[/li][li]At 2:55PM, after much whining, pashley accepted the challenge.[/li][li]At 5:11PM pashley noted that he would post tomorrow.[/li][li]pashley was to provide evidence for the existence of god.[/ul][/li] On the second day (04/22/00): [ul][li]No evidence was presented by pashley.[/li][li]At 9:30AM pashley argued that the universe must have a beginning so that he may present his argument.[/li][li]At 3:51PM SingleDad offered his services as Moderator due to pashley’s rules of engagement.[/li][li]At 5:41PM pashley declared that SingleDad would not serve adequately as a Moderator.[/ul][/li] On the third day (04/23/00): [ul][li]No evidence was presented by pashley.[/ul][/li] On the fourth day (04/24/00): [ul][li]No evidence was presented by pashley.[/li][li]At 12:45PM in the Cosmos thread, pashley stated that he would post here tomorrow.[/ul][/li] On the fifth day (04/25/00): [ul][li]No evidence was presented by pashley.[/li][li]pashley did not post.[/li][li]At 9:38PM I received an email from pashley stating that “As of this morning, i was kicked out of SDMB. I was not allowed to post,some message came up about[/li]the admins denying my permission.”[/ul] [sarcasm] Note: this is the only evidence presented by pashley thus far which might make one believe there is a god. [/sarcasm] On the six _and_ seventh days, _Nen_ will rest. In conclusion I must add the following: Supposing there is a god, God is supposed to love me. If god loved me, he’d swallow. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/38 "2000-04-26T02:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Nen: > **I apologize for requesting everyone’s lack of participation in this thread. Thank you for your cooperation. That said, I sincerely hope everyone reads this post. May this day live long in the Pit.** Pashley was discovered to have more than one screen name. (He was also “Everest.”) Quoting from the registration agreement: > [@](#): > > Only one screen name is permitted per user. If you wish to change screen names please notify the webmaster and we will deactivate your old screen name. Use of multiple screen names is grounds for revocation of your right to post under ANY screen name. your humble TubaDiva Administrator The Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/39 "2000-04-26T02:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by TubaDiva: > Pashley was discovered to have more than one screen name. I thought it was something to that effect which caused the expulsion. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108/40 "2000-04-26T02:34:00Z")
Good riddance. We’ve had some arrogant posters here, but **pashley** was one of the worst. Of course, he could come back under a _third_ name, couldn’t he? * * * \>\ \_ **L\_\_\_L** He’s _back!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goliath-cometh/18108.md?page=3)