# The Good Die Young, and Leni Riefenstahl Turns 100
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 26, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626 "2002-08-26T14:23:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/41 "2002-08-27T17:02:23Z")
Cutting and reordering for better response.
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> And for the third time, I’d like to say I don’t necessarily ADMIRE Leni, except that she managed to cram a crapload of living into 100 years…but I think that when she dies, which I think will probably be soon…it would be unfortunate if her obituary said nothing but “NAZI BITCH”. \*\*
It would, however, be accurate. The Nazi Bitch was an enabler for genocide. How nice that she’s crammed a lot of living in her 100 years. Too bad the victims of her evil didn’t.
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> \*\*
> In the seventies, she became a deep sea diver, and an underwater photographer, this was in addition to her work as a documentary photographer in the Sudan.
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> She was a war prisoner for seven years following world war II, and also was blacklisted from Hollywood.\*\*
Let’s put this in perspective: She was jet-setting across the world and deep sea diving in the '70s, when my great-grandparents and some of my grandparents were ashes in part because of her evil.
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> She claims that she had no direct involvement with Hitler but for six days conference in making Triumph of the Will. She says she DID NOT know the EXTENT of his crimes or genocidal activities, which I maintain was true of many German people, at all different levels of citizen ship.
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“I didn’t know vot dey vere doink! I vas innocent! I vas only folloink orders!” Feh. You can repeat her lies as much as you like, but anyone who heard Hitler’s speeches, lived through Krystalnacht, etc _knew_ what Hitler was up to. The “extent” argument is one regularly brought up by Nazi apologists (I do NOT consider you one, **Jarbaby** ): “Golly! Most Germans didn’t know the extent of what Hitler was doing.” Bullsh\*t. They knew he wanted to “cleanse” the land of Jews and undesirables. They heard his speeches. The “extent” argument comes down to saying “They knew that Jews and undesirables were being killed, but not being tortured an’ stuff.” I fail to see the practical difference.
How is this Nazi Bitch different from Mengele: Apparently some of his results actually contain valuable data. Should he be not be considered a Nazi Monster because he came up with something useful?
And what weasel-wording on her part “No direct involvement with Hitler”. So she didn’t actually hang out with him, but she had no problem glorifying him.
I am stunned that you can see any sort of beauty in that monster’s snuff-films. Technical competence? Maybe. But beauty? What beauty? The beauty of the merry dancing Gypsies who were forced to perform at gunpoint and were then murdered after they finished helping her “art”? Her glorification of one of the most evil regimes in history? Her joy in the whole Uberman concept?
She is repugnant and I sincerely hope her tombstone is engraved with “Nazi Collaborationist Bitch”
Fenris
(I agree with what **Eve** said about how if she’d 'fessed up and devoted the rest of her life to making up for her evil, I wouldn’t be so enraged by her. But tales of her long, mostly happy unrepentant life disgusts me.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/42 "2002-08-27T21:48:47Z")
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> \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \*
> **What I was saying by listing the baker and the housekeeper of Hitler is that a lot of people worked blindly with and alongside NAZI party leaders and members without knowing the extent of their hatred for A VERY LONG TIME.**
That is a complete bunch of crap. Anyone who was alive at the time and in area of Nazi contol who tries to tell you that was either a young child, mentally retarded or a fucking liar.
In my grandmother’s home town all of the Jews were taken from their homes at gun point and herded into the town square where they were kept for three days until the trains finally arrived. They were then all put onto the trains and taken to the Camps. In the meantime, people moved into their homes and took over their shops and started using their possessions as if they owned them. The guy who lived next to the Jewish cemetary got rid of all of the head stones and turned it into a potato field. My Mom went to see the place about ten years ago and the field is still there. There’s a wall made out of the head stones. The synagogue is still there too. There are still colorful paintings on the walls that were used to help the little kids learn Hebrew. In the attic, you can still find decaying prayer books. The building is currently being used as a sausage factory. Oh yeah, none of them had a clue what was going on either.
The good thing is that she knows that no matter how hard she tries to whitewash her sordid history, she will always be remembered for the opportunistic monster that she was in her youth and how she didn’t do a thing to atone for the many, many decades that she had left.
Haj
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### Author:  [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/43 "2002-08-27T22:03:06Z")
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> \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \*
> \*\*
> And for the third time, I’d like to say I don’t necessarily ADMIRE Leni, except that she managed to cram a crapload of living into 100 years…but I think that when she dies, which I think will probably be soon…it would be unfortunate if her obituary said nothing but “NAZI BITCH”. \*\*
Yes, the collaborationist whore crammed a great deal of living in her lifetime, no matter who she had to work with or that her work supported a regime that was genocidal and nililistic.
_Yay for her._
If her obituary only says **Nazi Bitch** , it will be far too kind.
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### Author:  [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/44 "2002-08-27T22:34:37Z")
Let’s get a little perspective here. Frank Capra made movies glamorizing the US; are we going to sock him with sidestream blame for atrocities committed against Indians, Blacks, Pacific islanders, Filipinos, etc.? If not, why?
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/45 "2002-08-27T22:39:42Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Krokodil \*
> \*\*Let’s get a little perspective here. Frank Capra made movies glamorizing the US; are we going to sock him with sidestream blame for atrocities committed against Indians, Blacks, Pacific islanders, Filipinos, etc.? If not, why? \*\*
Capra wasn’t employed by the U.S. Gov’t to make propoganda films.
Haj
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/46 "2002-08-27T23:47:13Z")
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> Capra wasn’t employed by the U.S. Gov’t to make propoganda films.
Yes, he was. During WWII, the Feds commissioned him to produce a series of propaganda films called [Why We Fight.](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0035209).
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### Author:  [@Purd\_Werfect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purd_Werfect)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/47 "2002-08-27T23:55:53Z")
I noticed that there’s a DVD of TOTW on Amazon, and some of the proceeds apparently go the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. I’ve never seen the film, but I’m interested in it from an historical perspective. I’m conflicted about buying it though.
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/48 "2002-08-28T03:27:12Z")
As someone who made a living for 20 years as a Cameraman and Photographer, as a 1st generation German Jew here, as a photographer with a conscience, I stand 100% behind **Eve** in this regard.
Nobody who has access to the Internet on this planet ( and, that means every single Doper) has any place approving of a dangerous whore who created a beautiful artful dangerous smokescreens that were solely created to convince people that what was going on was something powerfully noble and serving the greater needs of the world. I watched all of **"Triumph of the Will** with a sickening horror. Before me was the intellectual capacity to make monstrocity palatable, nay- appealing.
I would rather have my eyes gored out than ever for a moment believe that I’d created even a single still photograph that was as dangerous to the basic humanity on the planet as the works she created. She took a stunning intellect, a phenomenal eye and sense of light and compositon and used it to further one of the most destructive pursuits in modern history. ( Notice, I said, ONE OF the most- I’m a jew who isn’t blind to the atrocities committed against a lot of the rest of humanity in the last few centuries, the Holocaust is not the end all and be all of atrocity.)
I believe with all of my heart that if you are blessed with a gift that allows others to think, be moved, see, hear by virtue of your gift, that the worst most whorish thing you can do is use that gift for the destruction of even a single soul.
She is one of the worst examples of a human being in my memory- far worse than a soldier who was “following orders”. And I am here to tell you all, as someone who has stood on the flagstone terrace outside the Oval Office, when you are near a Head of State, and his “people”., you see and hear things that nobody else sees and hears.
She knew everything. She knew things we can not imagine.
The lying whore.
Cartooniverse
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/49 "2002-08-28T15:04:07Z")
I would ask anyone who harbors the notion that the ordinary people of Germany didn’t know what was going on “for a long time” to read [this book.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679772685/qid=1030546522/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7952073-8164711) Please.
Haj
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/50 "2002-08-28T15:16:31Z")
I have not seen TOTW, I have seen Olympia, and it is gorgeous. Actors re-enacting ancient Grecian games, seeing the human form in it’s naked athletic glory, swimmers, runners, divers, was beautiful. That is the only film I can speak for.
And thank you for clarifying Fenris, that you do not think I’m a NAZI apologist. I am NOT, and I want that to be CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR. Anyone who has followed me on this board knows I hate it when people even make NAZI jokes because it belittles what happened so many years ago.
I just think that history demands that Leni’s entire life be studied and not just two or three years of it. It’s not a big enough issue for me to fight over, it’s just that I wanted perhaps the younger and uneducated members of the board to know all the things that Leni did, rather than just two films.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/51 "2002-08-28T16:00:38Z")
Nobody said or even insinuated that you were a Nazi apologist.
If history demands anything, however, it’s that that era needs to be well understood so that something like that is never repeated. The fiction that the ordinary people didn’t know what was going on for most of that era, something that you said three times in this thread (and in CAPS I might add), is a dangerous one to state. It’s simply not supported by a mountian of facts.
For the most part, the point that her stuff has artistic value and that she did some cool stuff later in life is a point that is conceeded. People are taking exception to the statement, which you also said more than a couple times, that Riefenstahl was ignorant about what was really happening. Again, it’s simply not supported by the facts. Even worse, she spent her entire life lying about it.
You want the younger people to know she did more stuff. Fine by me. I sure as hell don’t want the younger people of the board to believe her whitewash lies about her past. You shouldn’t either.
Haj
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### Author:  [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/52 "2002-08-28T17:03:04Z")
I wonder how many people who claim **Olympia** is a Nazi propaganda film have actually seen it. There’s nothing pro-Nazi in it. To the contrary, there is a persistant visual theme of the brotherhood of all nations. And the film impartially shows the victories of African-American runner Jesse Owens and Asian athletes – hardly a vindication of Nazi racial theories.
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/53 "2002-08-29T00:00:09Z")
Just piping in to say I agree with **Eve, Cartoon** , The Professor and Mary-Ann, here on Gilligan’s Isle.
* * *
The happier you are, the more potential for misery you have.
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/54 "2002-08-29T11:54:36Z")
**jarbabyj** , I don’t think you are a Nazi Apologist, and I don’t see where someone else did. that’s Pit Language anyway. :rolleyes:
I must say this, however. You so vehemently defend a film you admit you have never seen. That’s remarkably weak. Some of us are attacking her for making that film, and what the making of that film MEANS in the moral context of filmmaking, and history in general.
How can you attack from a position of absolute ignorance? All you know is the title. I admire and respect your posts and mindset, and always have. You’re on thin ice here. Please, find it and rent it and view it, your strong opinion’s are valued around here.
Right now, you cannot possibly have one, IMHO.
Cartooniverse
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### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/55 "2002-08-29T16:10:22Z")
Why didn’t she, after finding out just how bad ol’ Hitler and comnpany were, make some more films with her _incredible_ talent that documented what really happened?
Hummmm… Could it be because she is **NAZI _BITCH!!!_**
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### Author:  [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/56 "2002-08-29T17:19:10Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Zebra \*
> \*\*Could it be because she is **NAZI _BITCH!!!_** \*\*
I don’t think so. Riefenstahl has said in her defense that if Stalin had offered her the same opportunity, she would have worked for him. The sad thing is, I believe her. She wasn’t interested in Nazism or even party politics in general. She was enthralled by power and its glamour, and would rather not have thought too deeply about its consequences. She was one hell of an opportunist.
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### Author:  [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/57 "2002-08-29T17:36:16Z")
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> \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \*
> \*\*BTW all arguments about Rifenstahl aside isn’t it remarkable that an important figure of the 30’s is still alive and going strong. I wonder if there is anyone else of comparable importance from that era ,in any field, who is still alive. \*\*
Yes: [Madame Chiang Kai-shek to Celebrate 105th Birthday](http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200203/25/eng20020325_92808.shtml) . Much more important in a political sense, than Leni Riefenstahl.
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/58 "2002-08-29T17:48:37Z")
Cartooniverse, do you even fucking read my posts or just sort of pretend? First of all, I was thanking Fenris for NOT calling me a NAZI apologist, since he said my arguments were typical OF NAZI apologists…and then he clarified that I was not one.
Secondly. I have done extensive research on Leni and I have seen Olympia…just because I have not see TOTW doesn’t mean I can’t speak about a film maker. I wasn’t giving my opinion of one movie, I was giving my opinion of Leni Reifenstahl’s life…which, obviously contrary to your beliefs, consisted of more than one film.
Reread what I wrote and get back to me before flying off the handle in the future.
J
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/59 "2002-08-29T20:16:02Z")
**jar** ,
I would really like you to defend the following two statements that you made:
1. Leni didn’t really know what was going on in Nazi Germany when she made the two famous films.
2. Most everyday people didn’t know what was going on either.
There is virtually no disagreement that Leni was talented and that she did much more than those two films in the Nazi era. Why you continue to argue that is beyond me. Most of us took exception to the two points that I mentioned above. Would you mind defending those?
Haj
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-die-young-and-leni-riefenstahl-turns-100/125626/60 "2002-08-29T20:53:56Z")
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> \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \*
> \*\*…just because I have not see TOTW doesn’t mean I can’t speak about a film maker. \*\*
Right you are, and if this was a thread started solely about **Olympia** , I never would have written what I wrote. Unfortunately for you and your steadfast pride in your cinematic ignorance, this thread is much more about **TOTW** , and you have not seen it.
How can you defend someone’s actions and someone’s creations when you are ignorant of the material? Am I supposed to somehow be cowed into apologizing because you did some research on her a while back?
It’s like hearing you state vehemently that Stephen Spielberg is solely responsible for the visual style of **Jaws** , because you read it once in a Film Forum interview. Bill Butler, the D.P.- and more cruxially, camera operator Michael Chapman- are responsible for the visual style. Doing research doesn’t provide you with armor behind which you can feel free to attack people who have invested the time and intellectual fortitude to actually sit and watch **The Triumph Of The Will**.
Your vehemence in the face of being caught out ignorant of the central film being discussed here is bewildering, it’s not like you. So, admit you know nothing about the film. What’s the big deal? I never have seen **Olympia** , and am aware that I have nothing to offer in a discussion of that film.
And, to return to the O.P., she should burn in Hell forever for propping up with her propoganda that which humanity holds to be most vile.
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