# The Good Place \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 21, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545 "2016-09-21T23:33:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/622 "2018-02-04T20:38:50Z")
I remember a few episodes ago Chidi, the professional ethical philosopher, said that “it’s always wrong to lie” and even I thought, “what if the Nazis come and ask where the Jews are hiding?”. Did that objection just slip his mind? I would have thought that sort of situation, like the trolley problem, was his bread and butter. Anyway, besides that, he seems like he has the “do good things because they’re good and not for any reward” thing in the bag. So I wonder if this whole show has been some sort of purgatory for the humans (or maybe just Eleanor and Jason) all along, to help them grow spiritually, before they’re allowed into the real good place. And the particular combination of people are chosen so that they help make each other better people or something. Though the memory wiping seems to dampen that theory a bit. And maybe there is something to that whole “soul mate” thing after all. And then there’s Janet. To be honest I really have no idea where this show is going next. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/623 "2018-02-04T20:44:40Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I remember a few episodes ago Chidi, the professional ethical philosopher, said that “it’s always wrong to lie” and even I thought, “what if the Nazis come and ask where the Jews are hiding?”. > . _“I can’t tell you.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/624 "2018-02-04T20:48:51Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I remember a few episodes ago Chidi, the professional ethical philosopher, said that “it’s always wrong to lie” and even I thought, “what if the Nazis come and ask where the Jews are hiding?”. Did that objection just slip his mind? I would have thought that sort of situation, like the trolley problem, was his bread and butter. Anyway, besides that, he seems like he has the “do good things because they’re good and not for any reward” thing in the bag. Chidi seems to be into Kant, and Kant famously insisted you may not lie even in a case like that. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/625 "2018-02-04T20:54:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _“I can’t tell you.”_ Yeah, but it’s not hard to concoct a situation where the lie would be more likely to save lives than a refusal to answer. E.g., “Did you see them come down this alleyway?” “No, they went that way.” “After them!” vs. “Did you see them come down this alleyway?” “I can’t tell you.” “OK, search the alley!” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/626 "2018-02-04T21:06:37Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Yeah, but it’s not hard to concoct a situation where the lie would be more likely to save lives than a refusal to answer. E.g., > > “Did you see them come down this alleyway?” > “No, they went that way.” > “After them!” > > vs. > > “Did you see them come down this alleyway?” > “I can’t tell you.” > “OK, search the alley!” No, you Kant lie even then. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/627 "2018-02-04T21:23:11Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Chidi seems to be into Kant, and Kant famously insisted you may not lie even in a case like that. That’s true (see for example: [http://www.sophia-project.org/uploads/1/3/9/5/13955288/kant\_lying.pdf](http://www.sophia-project.org/uploads/1/3/9/5/13955288/kant_lying.pdf)) and the show has Chidi specifically mention that it was Kant who said you should never lie. But I wonder how many modern moral philosophers would actually agree with Kant on this point. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/628 "2018-02-04T21:27:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, you Kant lie even then. LOL. 🙂 To be clear, I’m not saying Chidi with his rigid Kantian morality would lie in that situation. I think one _should_, though. Maybe this is why every moral philosopher is in Hell? (Assuming Michael wasn’t lying about that just to torture Chidi.) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/629 "2018-02-04T21:40:21Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > That’s true (see for example: [http://www.sophia-project.org/uploads/1/3/9/5/13955288/kant\_lying.pdf](http://www.sophia-project.org/uploads/1/3/9/5/13955288/kant_lying.pdf)) and the show has Chidi specifically mention that it was Kant who said you should never lie. > But I wonder how many modern moral philosophers would actually agree with Kant on this point. Surely this ‘_can’t lie even if it would save lives_’ is the Sin of Pride. Or, if you prefer, the Ethical Failing of Pride. In either case, it involves prioritizing one’s own supposed ‘purity’ (as the one who never lies) over the well-being of others. (I wouldn’t be surprised to see this particular issue focused on, in a Season 3 episode.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/630 "2018-02-04T21:43:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Surely this ‘_can’t lie even if it would save lives_’ is the Sin of Pride. Or, if you prefer, the Ethical Failing of Pride. > > In either case, it involves prioritizing one’s own supposed ‘purity’ (as the one who never lies) over the well-being of others. > > (I wouldn’t be surprised to see this particular issue focused on, in a Season 3 episode.) Except that you don’t _know_ your lying will save lives or do anything but get you into trouble. But you do \*know \*you are being unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/631 "2018-02-04T22:48:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that you don’t _know_ your lying will save lives or do anything but get you into trouble. But you do \*know \*you are being unethical. Well, if one’s ONLY basis for action (of any kind) is knowing what the consequences will be, then no one would or could ever act. So I don’t think the objection you state would work as an ethical rule (and neither would any other proposed rule that depended on knowledge of the future). But, heck: I could be wrong! (Sounds as though we need a ‘philosophical concepts inspired by watching _The Good Place_’ thread.) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/632 "2018-02-05T01:05:50Z")
What other sitcom inspired a spirited discuss of Immanuel Kant? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/633 "2018-02-05T01:08:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that you don’t _know_ your lying will save lives or do anything but get you into trouble. But you do \*know \*you are being unethical. That just demostrates the limitations of ethics, not the limitations of humans. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/634 "2018-02-05T01:20:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > What other sitcom inspired a spirited discuss of Immanuel Kant? 😃 Immanuel Kant was a real pissant. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/635 "2018-02-05T02:30:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Surely this ‘_can’t lie even if it would save lives_’ is the Sin of Pride. Or, if you prefer, the Ethical Failing of Pride. > > In either case, it involves prioritizing one’s own supposed ‘purity’ (as the one who never lies) over the well-being of others. It’s been many years since I studied Kant, and I wasn’t a fan of his even at the time, but IIRC that’s not why Kant was opposed to lying. He believed that lying was always wrong because he considered even seemingly harmless or benevolent lies to be damaging to society. Deceiving a murderer wasn’t the problem in Kant’s view. The problem as he saw it was that a productive society where people interact with one another in a rightful manner requires that we be able to take others at their word. Lying, even with good intentions, undermines this trust. FWIW, in most situations Kant didn’t believe that other people had any particular right to the _truth_. You could ethically refuse to answer a question you didn’t want to answer. It was the act of deception that Kant was opposed to, not keeping information private. IIRC some have argued that Kant’s point wasn’t so much that one should never ever lie under any circumstances, it was more about taking responsibility for the consequences of one’s lies – including unforeseen consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/636 "2018-02-05T21:51:02Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > It’s been many years since I studied Kant, and I wasn’t a fan of his even at the time, but IIRC that’s not why Kant was opposed to lying. He believed that lying was always wrong because he considered even seemingly harmless or benevolent lies to be damaging to society. Deceiving a murderer wasn’t the problem in Kant’s view. The problem as he saw it was that a productive society where people interact with one another in a rightful manner requires that we be able to take others at their word. Lying, even with good intentions, undermines this trust. > > FWIW, in most situations Kant didn’t believe that other people had any particular right to the _truth_. You could ethically refuse to answer a question you didn’t want to answer. It was the act of deception that Kant was opposed to, not keeping information private. > > IIRC some have argued that Kant’s point wasn’t so much that one should never ever lie under any circumstances, it was more about taking responsibility for the consequences of one’s lies – including unforeseen consequences. Fair enough, but problems with the idea that ‘any act of deception is damaging to society’ are easy to find. For example, if a terminally-ill person gets a makeover–but winds up still looking less-than-attractive, is it damaging to society to compliment them on their appearance in kind terms? (So where would a thread on this belong? Great Debates?) ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/637 "2018-02-05T21:58:51Z")
I like it. I couldn’t really get into at first because I just wasn’t buying Kristin Bell in the main role. For the first several episodes it seemed like it was written for Owen Wilson. I think it’s funny, and it’s cool they are hitting on some philosophical themes in an easily digestible way. Definitely recommend. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/638 "2018-02-05T22:10:13Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > It’s been many years since I studied Kant, and I wasn’t a fan of his even at the time, but IIRC that’s not why Kant was opposed to lying. He believed that lying was always wrong because he considered even seemingly harmless or benevolent lies to be damaging to society. Deceiving a murderer wasn’t the problem in Kant’s view. The problem as he saw it was that a productive society where people interact with one another in a rightful manner requires that we be able to take others at their word. Lying, even with good intentions, undermines this trust. > > FWIW, in most situations Kant didn’t believe that other people had any particular right to the _truth_. You could ethically refuse to answer a question you didn’t want to answer. It was the act of deception that Kant was opposed to, not keeping information private. > > IIRC some have argued that Kant’s point wasn’t so much that one should never ever lie under any circumstances, it was more about taking responsibility for the consequences of one’s lies – including unforeseen consequences. Here is a long dissertation that more or less agrees with you: [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9833.2010.01507.x/full](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9833.2010.01507.x/full) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/639 "2018-02-06T03:09:40Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Fair enough, but problems with the idea that ‘any act of deception is damaging to society’ are easy to find. For example, if a terminally-ill person gets a makeover–but winds up still looking less-than-attractive, is it damaging to society to compliment them on their appearance in kind terms? As I said, I’m not a fan of Kant’s, and plenty of people who know more about philosophy than I do have argued against his position on lying. However, your example is one where I’d actually agree with Kant. I can understand the temptation to lie in such a situation, but to do so is at best patronizing and at worst is impeding the other person’s ability to make informed choices. You don’t have to say “Frankly, you look like you’re at death’s door and all the makeup in the world isn’t going to cover that up” even if that’s what you really think, but there’s probably _something_ about the makeover that merits a sincere compliment. If the makeover itself was a total disaster, you’re not doing the other person any favors by lying about how great they look. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/640 "2018-02-06T04:10:29Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > but there’s probably _something_ about the makeover that merits a sincere compliment. I think this is in many ways a moral failing worse than a white lie. It’s what makes religion possible, and _The Good Place_ is an attack on those varieties of cheap platitudes of religion. It’s what George Burns mocked when he said, “Sincerity - if you can fake that, you’ve got it made.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545/641 "2018-06-13T13:59:13Z")
[Mike Schur answers some questions](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/good-place-mike-schur-season-2-w521461) about Season 2. Massive spoilers abound, obviously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-edited-title/766545.md?page=33)