# The Good Place season 4 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903 "2019-09-27T10:08:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/161 "2020-01-24T00:04:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I still find it weird that the best person (according to the old system) to have lived for the last 500 years was Mindy St Clair. In fairness, that’s only 3.34Tgh&92$f jeremy bearimies. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/162 "2020-01-24T06:20:36Z")
Episode 12: Patty Wow. I was driving home from work anticipating today’s episode (for some reason I was expecting two parts to run tonight) and thinking that eternity is a really long time, and about Wowbagger the infinitely prolonged. Shocked to see that be the theme of this episode. Pretty mind blowing - I feel like my brain is now as smooth as an egg. Need a stardust milkshake to recover. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/163 "2020-01-24T09:45:22Z")
I checked the channel guide for next Thursday. The episode is slated to run from 8:30-10:00. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/164 "2020-01-24T14:36:12Z")
I wonder if that’s why they stopped accepting people in the good place - they realized it was broken. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/165 "2020-01-24T14:51:44Z")
So the problem with the Good Place was that an eternity of having every wish fulfilled gets boring after some time, and their solution is to give people an exit, a door through which you pass, your existence ends and who knows what happens next. Isn’t that describing what happens when one dies? And wouldn’t Janet know what happens if you pass through that door? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/166 "2020-01-24T15:31:41Z")
I was amused by Tahani’s conversation with the one guy who died of a small cut on his finger (due to the absence of vaccinations) and said, “It’s crazy that you guys just don’t like them now.” ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/167 "2020-01-24T15:36:29Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I wonder if that’s why they stopped accepting people in the good place - they realized it was broken. I don’t think so, because the indications seem to have been that the Good Place and Bad Place don’t really know much about each other and (until now) neither was directly involved in the sorting system. But it might be why the Good Place folks were so slow to try to change anything. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/168 "2020-01-24T15:41:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So the problem with the Good Place was that an eternity of having every wish fulfilled gets boring after some time, and their solution is to give people an exit, a door through which you pass, your existence ends and who knows what happens next. Isn’t that describing what happens when one dies? And wouldn’t Janet know what happens if you pass through that door? Yeah, I mean. I think you just landed on the analogy. Life has meaning because it ends. To give the afterlife meaning, it also has to end. Janet doesn’t know, because the whole point is that they’re letting people pass OUT of known existence. And, just like WE don’t really know what happens when people die, Janet (still a being OF this known existence) can’t really know what happens when somebody passes out of it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/169 "2020-01-24T17:45:39Z")
I’m thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. This last one was too easy and the pleasure of doing it won’t last long. Even with the exit door it is like retiring with no plan of what to do … ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/170 "2020-01-24T18:13:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’m thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. This last one was too easy and the pleasure of doing it won’t last long. > > Even with the exit door it is like retiring with no plan of what to do … Fear not, there’s still 30 (or 60, or 90 according to\*\* kaylasdad99\*\*) minutes left work that out. Perhaps Phoebe Buffay of Alexandria can help the team figure things out. ---
**Author:** ![Calavera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calavera/32/70_2.png) [@Calavera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calavera)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/171 "2020-01-25T00:45:37Z")
A great episode that looks ready to set up a true “stick the landing” finale. I think the idea of voluntary memory wipes was dismissed way too easily as it seems like the perfect solution. but I’m happy to accept it as a “nu-uh we can’t do that” and not question it too deeply. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/172 "2020-01-25T03:20:55Z")
I have quietly questioned a lot about religion throughout my life, and one of those has always been that an infinity of pleasure sounds very boring. Most people seem excited by it, I have onle ever been cynical and doubtful about it. It’s nice to have it addressed as a fundamental part of this story. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/173 "2020-01-25T16:47:14Z")
Because I saw The Jaunt thread yesterday and promptly re-read that short story (google delivers) it was on my mind while watching this episode. No matter how awesome, never-ending anything is hell. _It’s longer than you think, Dad! It’s longer than you think!_ [claws out own eyes] ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/174 "2020-01-25T17:57:37Z")
The problem was great, but the solution felt a little pat to me. Aren’t there other possibilities than permanent nonexistence? Such as: -Remove omnipotence. Pleasures in the afterlife will require some effort. -Remove consistency. Sporadic rewards are more rewarding than consistent ones, which is why gambling is so fun. -Allow good place inhabitants to help with the purgatory levels, or to help folks in them. Being useful is super motivating. -Reincarnation for them as want another bite at the apple. -Suspended animation. Go to sleep for 10,000 years, wake up to check out how things are going. -Godhood a la mormonism. Create your own universe. Exploring options other than true death would’ve been interesting, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/175 "2020-01-25T18:19:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Exploring options other than true death would’ve been interesting, IMO. A lot of those are starting to sound like the Culture novels. But yeah, it’s not like there’s not already all sorts of real afterlife designs to play with. It’s always been kind of curious that we’ve only seen the Brand X version of Dante’s scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/176 "2020-01-26T03:16:51Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > A lot of those are starting to sound like the Culture novels. Ayup. I was actually thinking that the showrunners should’ve read some Culture novels for ideas. They’re not my favorite SF, but they’ve explored this territory pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/177 "2020-01-27T01:44:17Z")
SPECULATION ABOUT SHOW FINALE FOLLOWS: (Just saying, in response to discussion earlier in the thread.) > [@DSeid](#): > > I’m thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. … That’s been a consistent theme in the show, and I expect we’ll see it in one form or another in the finale. Michael Schur, presumably, will want to provide an ending that will seem fitting and will satisfy. It’s likely that he’ll want to surprise viewers, too–if not at the full-on “twist” level, at least on the “didn’t see that coming—but it works” level. **NON-SUPERNATURAL ENDINGS:** \*\*\*“It was all a dream”—MS could show us Eleanor waking up in the hospital after the shopping-carts incident, but it’s unlikely that he will, as it would mean (for one thing) that the others in the main-six were merely creations of E’s imagination. The same is probably true for the somewhat-more-respectable, brain-science version of It was All a Dream: the “dreams are the mind’s way of healing itself” plot. _Inception_ did it well, and I doubt that MS wants to try to duplicate that. \*\*\*ALIENS—We haven’t seen much content on the creation of the system the characters are dealing with. Who or what made Gen? Who or what made the demons and the angels (or Good Place Committee, if you like)? Who or what made the Janets? The answer could be aliens—aliens who take an interest in humanity. Some of the aliens are benign and want to help humans evolve their ethical sense; others are sadistic and want to see humans tortured. This is a plot idea explored in a fair amount of detail, over several novels and stories, by the late Philip José Farmer, In his “Riverworld” series. Though it would certainly provide both surprise and a welcome explanation for what’s been going on, I doubt that Schur would want to use it as the comparisons would be too easy to make. \*\*\*OTHER SCIENCE-FICTION EXPLANATIONS—Instead of aliens, artificial-intelligence beings could be the prime movers, or humans hooked up to simulation machines, or any number of other classical sf premises. My guess, though, is that MS will stick with: **A SUPERNATURAL ENDING** Schur has already presented and treated a number of familiar themes, and is unlikely to hang the finale on one that’s already been explored on the show. These include: —LIVING AGAIN AND AGAIN LEADS TO PERSONAL GROWTH: This theme is popular because it makes sense in terms of our own experience. Movies like _Groundhog Day_ and\* Defending Your Life\* offer explicit depictions of the process, but of course it dates back many centuries, to Buddhism if not to earlier beliefs. —A HEAVEN THAT GIVES YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANT, SOON BECOMES HELL: Dealt with in the show, and not a new idea there; a familiar example is Charles Beaumont’s 1960 teleplay for _The Twilight Zone_, “A Nice Place to Visit.” (The wikipedia article on the episode mentions a 1935 radio play that went over similar ground.) Other fantasy themes that MS _could_ employ in the finale: —SEE WHAT (MIGHT) BECOME OF THE CHARACTERS: Both _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ and _Star Trek: Voyager_ used this device. Something causes a trip decades into the future that lets us see “what happened” to the characters, without committing to a declaration that this is what definitely happens to the characters–it’s all just one _possible_ future. It may have been satisfying for those particular shows, but Schur won’t want to duplicate the device. —THE CHARACTERS GET TO START ALL OVER AGAIN: This has been shown in the series. However, the variant “they live their lives again _from childhood_” hasn’t been used. (A pop-culture example is Richard Matheson’s _What Dreams May Come_). Still, it seems unlikely that MS will go there. So, if not any of those, then what? My guess: the main six characters—possibly with the addition of Shawn and a Bad Janet—will be promoted to becoming a collective God (essentially). They will go on working together and solving problems. The Point System may be abandoned and only hints of what will replace it will be discussed, maybe, leaving that bit of open-endedness that we tend to expect from the wrap-ups of beloved shows. All that sounds banal—but there is a certain glory to the idea that fans of the show might enjoy. Eleanor, the screw-up, part of God! There’s something to identify with in that concept. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/178 "2020-01-27T02:14:38Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > SPECULATION ABOUT SHOW FINALE FOLLOWS: > > (Just saying, in response to discussion earlier in the thread.) > > That’s been a consistent theme in the show, and I expect we’ll see it in one form or another in the finale. > > Michael Schur, presumably, will want to provide an ending that will seem fitting and will satisfy. It’s likely that he’ll want to surprise viewers, too–if not at the full-on “twist” level, at least on the “didn’t see that coming—but it works” level. > > **NON-SUPERNATURAL ENDINGS:** > > \*\*\*“It was all a dream”—MS could show us Eleanor waking up in the hospital after the shopping-carts incident, but it’s unlikely that he will, as it would mean (for one thing) that the others in the main-six were merely creations of E’s imagination. > > The same is probably true for the somewhat-more-respectable, brain-science version of It was All a Dream: the “dreams are the mind’s way of healing itself” plot. _Inception_ did it well, and I doubt that MS wants to try to duplicate that. > \*\*\*ALIENS—We haven’t seen much content on the creation of the system the characters are dealing with. Who or what made Gen? Who or what made the demons and the angels (or Good Place Committee, if you like)? Who or what made the Janets? The answer could be aliens—aliens who take an interest in humanity. Some of the aliens are benign and want to help humans evolve their ethical sense; others are sadistic and want to see humans tortured. > > This is a plot idea explored in a fair amount of detail, over several novels and stories, by the late Philip José Farmer, In his “Riverworld” series. Though it would certainly provide both surprise and a welcome explanation for what’s been going on, I doubt that Schur would want to use it as the comparisons would be too easy to make. > \*\*\*OTHER SCIENCE-FICTION EXPLANATIONS—Instead of aliens, artificial-intelligence beings could be the prime movers, or humans hooked up to simulation machines, or any number of other classical sf premises. My guess, though, is that MS will stick with: > **A SUPERNATURAL ENDING** > > Schur has already presented and treated a number of familiar themes, and is unlikely to hang the finale on one that’s already been explored on the show. These include: > > —LIVING AGAIN AND AGAIN LEADS TO PERSONAL GROWTH: This theme is popular because it makes sense in terms of our own experience. Movies like _Groundhog Day_ and\* Defending Your Life\* offer explicit depictions of the process, but of course it dates back many centuries, to Buddhism if not to earlier beliefs. > > —A HEAVEN THAT GIVES YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANT, SOON BECOMES HELL: Dealt with in the show, and not a new idea there; a familiar example is Charles Beaumont’s 1960 teleplay for _The Twilight Zone_, “A Nice Place to Visit.” (The wikipedia article on the episode mentions a 1935 radio play that went over similar ground.) > > Other fantasy themes that MS _could_ employ in the finale: > > —SEE WHAT (MIGHT) BECOME OF THE CHARACTERS: Both _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ and _Star Trek: Voyager_ used this device. Something causes a trip decades into the future that lets us see “what happened” to the characters, without committing to a declaration that this is what definitely happens to the characters–it’s all just one _possible_ future. It may have been satisfying for those particular shows, but Schur won’t want to duplicate the device. > > —THE CHARACTERS GET TO START ALL OVER AGAIN: This has been shown in the series. However, the variant “they live their lives again _from childhood_” hasn’t been used. (A pop-culture example is Richard Matheson’s _What Dreams May Come_). Still, it seems unlikely that MS will go there. > > So, if not any of those, then what? My guess: the main six characters—possibly with the addition of Shawn and a Bad Janet—will be promoted to becoming a collective God (essentially). They will go on working together and solving problems. The Point System may be abandoned and only hints of what will replace it will be discussed, maybe, leaving that bit of open-endedness that we tend to expect from the wrap-ups of beloved shows. > > All that sounds banal—but there is a certain glory to the idea that fans of the show might enjoy. Eleanor, the screw-up, part of God! There’s something to identify with in that concept. I don’t know if you’re glossing over this option because it’s so obvious and/or it’d be unsatisfying, but: what if everyone who’s earned a spot in The Bad Place pretty much goes through what these folks did? So the default experience is, you arrive in what seems to be The Good Place; and it eventually becomes clear that you’re living a lie since you can see that your faults in life, which you’re only now _really_ coming to grips with, would’ve plausibly landed you in The Bad Place; so you get put through your paces, going on a big adventure of self-exploration and improvement alongside a soulmate who’s doing likewise; and, however long it takes to get to a point where you’ve truly come to see the error of your ways and can now passionately make a philosophical case for how things _should_ be, you enter a version of The Good Place (a) that you soon realize ain’t quite right, (b) and you set to tinkering with it until you find it acceptable. Sure, we just watched _them_ do that; but _everyone_ in that situation does that… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/179 "2020-01-27T02:25:39Z")
Yeah, finding a balance point where everything is fixed, reasonable and happy is going to be a chore. But Schur hasn’t disappointed me so far. I’m willing to trust him to finish the ride as well as he’s run it so far. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903/180 "2020-01-27T02:28:50Z")
As much as I’d like to see the gang (and some other Good Placers like Hypatia) become Architects in their own right I don’t feel that will be the ending. My guess is that the finale will involve one or more of them finally deciding to step through that doorway, and we won’t see what happens next. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > -Godhood a la mormonism. Create your own universe… To be fair Janet didn’t explicitly say the walking though the door equals oblivion; just that it ended one’s existence _in this universe_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-place-season-4/840903.md?page=10)