# The Good Shepherd (film) - pretty freakin homo, right? \[SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329 "2009-07-08T13:44:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/1 "2009-07-08T13:44:39Z")
I don’t mean in a “OMG that film was so gay” way. I mean I’m watching the film again the other day and it struck me that there seems to be a lot of odd overtones: - His professor who clearly has a penchant for the lads - Skull & Bones pledging seems to involve a lot of nakedness, nude mud wrestling and getting peed on - They seemed to enjoy singing show tunes a bit too much - His son was pretty effeminent - Matt Damon gives off a closeted homosexual Talented Mr Ripley vibe the entire film - John Turturro is just always creepy - Finally, he’s just a little too bitter and resentful about being married to Angelina Jolie. So am I the only one seeing this? ---
**Author:** ![Claire\_Beauchamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@Claire\_Beauchamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claire_Beauchamp)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/2 "2009-07-08T15:24:10Z")
I think a lot of people look back on social mores of previous times and see them as “gay.” The idea that men might hug each other or show emotion with each other is more normal in history than it is now. Also, remember that, before rock ‘n’ roll, show tunes were THE popular music of the day. Singing a song from a Broadway show would be the equivalent of playing air guitar with your buds to Van Halen today. Having said that, a lot of all-male institutions have homoerotic overtones in their rituals. I daresay that fraternity hazing today probably has just as much nudity, etc. as shown in this movie. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/3 "2009-07-08T15:50:12Z")
True, it may just be a reflection of the social mores. However, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility. A big emphasis was placed on being “of the right sort of people”. Jews, minorities and most Catholics were not allowed in the CIA. Edward Wilson (Damon) never seemed comfortible with any of his female relationships. Who knows? Maybe I’m just used to CIA spies being more Jason Bourne, not Jason Boring. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/4 "2009-07-08T17:19:53Z")
That character seemed pretty excited about his relationship with the deaf girl, particularly after their reunion, but he felt that he was forced into a marriage with Jolie, who was not his type and was more of a one night stand to him. He never really loved her, but he did it because it was expected of him. Given a choice, I think he would have gone for the other girl and lived a reasonably happy life with her. It just wasn’t in the cards. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/5 "2009-07-08T20:32:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > - Finally, he’s just a little too bitter and resentful about being married to Angelina Jolie. Yeah, but of course he wasn’t married to _Angelina Jolie_, he was married to some bint he’d had a one night stand with. **interface2x** pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one. I can see your other points, but I don’t think homoeroticism was meant to be a subtext. _Excellent_ film, btw, though I did want to shoot the son with a bazooka. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/6 "2009-07-08T20:42:22Z")
I mainly remember the film as Joe Pesci’s cameo return to movies (the doting mafia don grandpa), but the naked on the table scene was definitely homoerotic. I think a part of it was that S&B and other such societies liked to humiliate as many of the hazing frats still do, and the vulnerability/implied threat of rape is the best way in the “Elvis villain” mindset to do that. \*\*Elvis villain: a term I use to mean "almost stereotypical snobbish/clannish/elitist/classist upper middle/upper class privileged trust fund Ivy League legacy fratboy types who tend to be long on entitlement and self-regard and short on imagination or insight. \* ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/7 "2009-07-09T00:30:37Z")
Point by point: _- His professor who clearly has a penchant for the lads_ – possibly the movie was hinting at it, but it says nothing about the actual events involved. \*- Skull & Bones pledging seems to involve a lot of nakedness, nude mud wrestling and getting peed on \* Not gay. That sort of stuff was not unusual for heterosexual men at the time, especially with things like fraternities. The idea was to humiliate the pledges, and there’s no better way to humiliate than to have them stand naked. _- They seemed to enjoy singing show tunes a bit too much_ This comment is just plain stupid. There’s nothing gay about show tunes. Also, in the time period of the film show tunes were _the_ popular music of the day. Everyone sang music from shows because it was what was played on the radio up until the mid-50s. _- His son was pretty effeminent_ Hard to say – it may have been the character, or just your own projection. _- Matt Damon gives off a closeted homosexual Talented Mr Ripley vibe the entire film_ Silly. This is you again, not the film. _- John Turturro is just always creepy_ See previous remark. \*- Finally, he’s just a little too bitter and resentful about being married to Angelina Jolie.\*The only reason you can be resentful of a marriage is because you’re gay? Really? **So am I the only one seeing this?** Yes. And the question is, why are you so intent on looking for signs of characters being gay? ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/8 "2009-07-09T00:57:37Z")
I’m surprised no one mentioned that he sings the show tunes _in drag_. Of course he’s in an all-male production and singing show tunes in drag was less associated with gay people back then, but I can see why the thought occurred to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/9 "2009-07-09T01:02:13Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > \*\*Elvis villain: a term I use to mean "almost stereotypical snobbish/clannish/elitist/classist upper middle/upper class privileged trust fund Ivy League legacy fratboy types who tend to be long on entitlement and self-regard and short on imagination or insight. \* Why the name Elvis, though? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/10 "2009-07-09T02:43:28Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why the name Elvis, though? In Elvis movies, the beautiful girl he fell for usually seemed to be dating the obnoxious Princeton Q. Fratboy, III, who was the villain of the piece. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/11 "2009-07-09T02:47:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > - Skull & Bones pledging seems to involve a lot of nakedness, nude mud wrestling **and getting peed on** Why do you cite getting peed on as an example of homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/12 "2009-07-09T04:42:04Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Why do you cite getting peed on as an example of homosexuality? I’ll let you google “water sports” at your own discretion (be warned), though I’ll say quickly that 1- it’s not an exclusively homo thing 2- it’s only practiced by a really kinky and weird tiny minority of homos It’s an almost universal sign of asserting dominance, though, possibly learned from cats and dogs long before history was recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/13 "2009-07-09T04:42:49Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In Elvis movies, the beautiful girl he fell for usually seemed to be dating the obnoxious Princeton Q. Fratboy, III, who was the villain of the piece. Gotcha, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/14 "2009-07-09T11:57:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’ll let you google “water sports” at your own discretion (be warned), though I’ll say quickly that > > 1- it’s not an exclusively homo thing > 2- it’s only practiced by a really kinky and weird tiny minority of homos > > It’s an almost universal sign of asserting dominance, though, possibly learned from cats and dogs long before history was recorded. No, I know exactly what it is. But as you said it’s not at all exclusively homosexual. In the movie there wasn`t anything to suggest a sexual angle. For instance, if the older members were ejaculating onto the naked mud wrestling pledges I’d say Ok, surely it was still an act to demean and dominate the pledges but also an inherently sexual act and pretty gay for the movie. But there’s nothing inherently sexual about peeing on people and nothing in the movie suggested it was sexual so I don`t see how it’s an example of homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/15 "2009-07-09T13:06:00Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > _- His professor who clearly has a penchant for the lads_ > – possibly the movie was hinting at it, but it says nothing about the actual events involved. I thought that was a pretty clear message in the film - that’s why the old professor was killed, because he wasn’t “discerning” enough with his partners. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-good-shepherd-film-pretty-freakin-homo-right-spoilers/502329/16 "2009-07-09T15:15:37Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Why do you cite getting peed on as an example of homosexuality? Well, because it was a man peeing on a bunch of naked man mud wrestling. [QUOTE=RealityChuck] Yes. And the question is, why are you so intent on looking for signs of characters being gay? [/quote] Because I’m projecting my own repressed homosexuality. Why do people think Top Gun is gay just because a bunch of dudes play volleyball shirtless? Does it really matter? I’m just wondering what the point of showing scenes of cross dressing show tune singing, non-coed naked mud wrestling, nude pledging activities and implied gay professor spyman. The director chose to include these scenes for a reason. Also, how into the deaf girl was Edward really? Even before he slept with Clover (and she had to practically man-rape him), she was saying he seemed kind of distant and unavailable. We assumed it’s because he was worried about how his Skull & Bones brothers would judge her, but maybe not. I’m just saying that it could have been one of the things that drove Edward into such a weird and isolated career and lifestyle. Then again, it could just be that we’re more used to seeing spies as suave womanizing playboys in films like the James Bond movies, The Recruit, Spygame and so on. Although I imagine The Good Shepherd is probably a much more accurate portrayal of what spies really are like.