# The Goon phenomenon **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 7, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574 "2011-04-07T20:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/41 "2011-04-12T20:51:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > No thanks, I like the way I look at it just fine. Bunch of immature selfish punks that like to grief others for amusement. > > It would be perfectly reasonable for them not to have attacked. Or at least to have stopped the attack when told what it was they were disrupting. Just because you can do something in a game does not mean you should do it. > > I could log on tonight and go to a newbie area, kill all the NPCs, quest mobs, and any newbies dumb enough to flag themselves for PVP without breaking a sweat. Doing that would be jerkish behavior, and ruin the night for a lot of other people trying to play the game normally. So I’m not going to do that. Instead, I’ll go to one of the battlegrounds and pick on people my own size, who can and will fight back. And what if they held their memorial in a battleground? Should you ignore them and fight the other people that joined to fight not to sit around? Or would that be disrespectful as well? Should you quietly log off and find some other battleground? They went to a legal PVP area for their little service. The guys that attacked them were jerks but you can’t fence off an area of the game for non game reasons and demand other people respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/42 "2011-04-12T20:52:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Case in point: If a game gives you the ability to steal things, and the ability to choose “Thief” as your character class, are you griefing people if you steal their stuff? For me, there’s a difference between tools the game _gives you and warns other people about_ and mechanics that are abused in order to act in ways they weren’t meant to. Going back to EVE: hunting players at random in 0.0 space is totally cool. The game allows for it, and there’s sufficient warning. Anyone who enters 0.0 space has accepted the risk. Goon intentionally crashing the node? Not cool. For WoW: attacking an enemy player at will on a PVP server. Cool. Taking advantage of teammates’ trust to drop them in lava, or getting a mammoth to sit on top of a heavily-trafficked mailbox or NPC. Not cool. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/43 "2011-04-12T21:07:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The thing is, not all jerkish behavior is necessarily griefing. It all depends on context, and just because someone doesn’t want something done, doesn’t mean that it’s going to fly in-game. Ok, you’re right about that. My point is that the people who decided it was not going to fly in this particular instance were jerks. > [@Zeriel](#): > > My feeling is that all of the bad things about this event were external to the game itself, because one guild announced they were going to essentially be easy targets and the other decided to infiltrate and kill them. And you’re right about that, IIRC. I think the memorial was announced, possibly on the official forums, and it was predictable that someone would try to ruin the event. In my view, that still does not excuse the people that did ruin the event. > [@Darkhold](#): > > And what if they held their memorial in a battleground? That’s where I’d draw the line. Going to a remote zone to have a private event is one thing–doesn’t really interfere with others in any significant way. Going to a battleground is different–the only reason to enter a battleground is to pvp. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/44 "2011-04-12T21:15:36Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I could log on tonight and go to a newbie area, kill all the NPCs, quest mobs, and any newbies dumb enough to flag themselves for PVP without breaking a sweat. Doing that would be jerkish behavior, and ruin the night for a lot of other people trying to play the game normally. So I’m not going to do that. Instead, I’ll go to one of the battlegrounds and pick on people my own size, who can and will fight back. But that’s just it. The mourners were \*not \*playing the game normally. They essentially declared “tonight, this zone is for our Serious Business only, either play along or fuck off you terrible person”. That’s the kind of self-importance that brings the devil out of people. Especially as there typically are conflict-free zones in those kinds of games precisely for that sort of event. If you decide that you’re too good for those, head out in the wilds and expect the rest of the world to comply with your whims, well you’re in for a sore arse, period. Especially in an environment as merciless as a PvP server. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/45 "2011-04-12T21:24:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But that’s just it. The mourners were \*not \*playing the game normally. They essentially declared “tonight, this zone is for our Serious Business only, either play along or fuck off you terrible person”. They didn’t claim the whole zone as far as I know. They went to a small part of the zone for their memorial…which I say again was dedicated to a real person that had died. Guildmates are often scattered around the country, sometimes even around the world. This was pretty much the only way they could have some sort of ceremony for their friend. They probably should have chosen a care bear location, but still, fucking that up falls into the same category as Fred Phelps protesting at funerals. Some things just are not done by decent people. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/46 "2011-04-12T22:34:04Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s where I’d draw the line. Going to a remote zone to have a private event is one thing–doesn’t really interfere with others in any significant way. Going to a battleground is different–the only reason to enter a battleground is to pvp. One could make the same general argument about “electing to join a PvP server rather than a PvE one”, naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/47 "2011-04-12T23:37:29Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > One could make the same general argument about “electing to join a PvP server rather than a PvE one”, naturally. Again…this was a one time event for a real person that died. Just because someone plays on a pvp server does not mean they have to be assholes. And even on a pvp server, people do not pvp 100% of the time. They still have to do the normal stuff–leveling, quests, instances, gathering/crafting etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/48 "2011-04-12T23:38:05Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > One could make the same general argument about “electing to join a PvP server rather than a PvE one”, naturally. Yes, but they didn’t exactly roll a bunch of characters on a PvP server to hold a memorial service. They were already a guild when their friend died, it wouldn’t have even made sense to roll new characters on a PvE server to hold the memorial. I suppose you could argue that you only go to a contested territory if you expect to possibly PvP, but Contested territories make up almost every zone in the game. Of all the scenic or memorable locations you can pick to hold a memorial in, a good chunk of them are going to be in a contested zone\*. Not to mention Contested zones have a lot, lot more non-PvP content than Battlegrounds do, with most zones not even having any sort of PvP objective, simply being the wild west with no inherent PvP goal. - Though, to be honest, I would have just cleared out SM Cathedral, but what can ya do? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/49 "2011-04-12T23:45:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > They didn’t claim the whole zone as far as I know. They went to a small part of the zone for their memorial…which I say again was dedicated to a real person that had died. Guildmates are often scattered around the country, sometimes even around the world. This was pretty much the only way they could have some sort of ceremony for their friend. They probably should have chosen a care bear location, but still, fucking that up falls into the same category as Fred Phelps protesting at funerals. Some things just are not done by decent people. They could have reminisced or expressed their feelings on IRC or on a forum. If being in the game was somehow absolutely required to pay their respects to the dead, they could have done so in a quiet area. If the location was what was important, they could have created toons on a peaceful server just for the occasion. Or they could have assumed the event would attract negative attention & taken steps to remedy that, as \*\*Zeriel \*\*mentions. But they chose none of the above. In doing so, they implicitly accepted the consequences. On some level I agree that the other guild specifically planning to fuck it up for the evulz was petty - but then again, expecting the rest of the world to stop because their friend was dead was extremely narcissistic as well. There’s a reason people in RL don’t hold funereal services on the bleachers of a football stadium during a game, expecting the rest of the crowd to keep quiet for this sombre occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/50 "2011-04-13T00:10:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But they chose none of the above. In doing so, they implicitly accepted the consequences. > > On some level I agree that the other guild specifically planning to fuck it up for the evulz was petty - but then again, expecting the rest of the world to stop because their friend was dead was extremely narcissistic as well. This sums up my position more eloquently than I could. The gankers were correct in the game context and wrong in the real-world context, and that ties back to the OP primarily in the idea that Goon insists on a heavy firewall between the two. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/51 "2011-04-13T00:14:57Z")
I’d heard of that, but didn’t hear that the guys who did it were Goons. That’s awesome. I believe the phrase “pubbie tears” applies. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/52 "2011-04-13T01:04:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’d heard of that, but didn’t hear that the guys who did it were Goons. That’s awesome. > > I believe the phrase “pubbie tears” applies. They weren’t goons, actually. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/53 "2011-04-13T01:53:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There’s a reason people in RL don’t hold funereal services on the bleachers of a football stadium during a game, expecting the rest of the crowd to keep quiet for this sombre occasion. This is close to capturing the right point, but even then doesn’t quite get there. At the very least, the football bleachers still exist in the real world, and people’s behaviors are, presumably, subject to the same norms as they are in other contexts IRL. A better analogy (though still strained) would be if the team on defense wanted to hold a moment of silence _during the game_ to honor a dead teammate, and so expected the opposing quarterback not to call an audible. The norms of everyday life do not apply to a football game. The fundamental problem is that WoW is a game world with explicitly different norms from the real world. Expecting people to respect real-world norms in a fictional world with vastly different norms, many of which explicitly contravene real-world ones, is silly. I’d even go so far as to say that it’s contrary to the spirit of the game. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/54 "2011-04-13T02:18:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > They weren’t goons, actually. 😛 … can I pretend they were? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/55 "2011-04-13T15:16:31Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > This is close to capturing the right point, but even then doesn’t quite get there. At the very least, the football bleachers still exist in the real world, and people’s behaviors are, presumably, subject to the same norms as they are in other contexts IRL. A better analogy (though still strained) would be if the team on defense wanted to hold a moment of silence _during the game_ to honor a dead teammate, and so expected the opposing quarterback not to call an audible. The norms of everyday life do not apply to a football game. > > The fundamental problem is that WoW is a game world with explicitly different norms from the real world. Expecting people to respect real-world norms in a fictional world with vastly different norms, many of which explicitly contravene real-world ones, is silly. I’d even go so far as to say that it’s contrary to the spirit of the game. With a gentle demeanor, I say “Bull. That’s just an excuse to be a dick 'cause you (not you, specifically) want to”. The norms (culture?) are what the players decide they are. It’s still people interacting and/or experiencing the same thing together (and effecting each other). It doesn’t matter if it’s face to face like at a sports event (or political rally), or over the internet. **Example** : Lord of the Rings Online has seasonal events. They appear as a fair type festival near Bree, and in the Shire. It includes a timed “horse race”, player competing against other players. (The reward is a mount token specific to that season.) Only five players may run the race at one time. (At least, the first season did that. I don’t know if it’s still capped and competitive.) When I got there, players were literally forming a line with their toons! It was notable enough that there was a “thank you” posted on the LotRO website by Turbine (the developers) for the (unexpected? heh) good behaviour. The game system would have allowed griefing (because the developers did not think to code anything to prevent it), but the players themselves chose the way this event developed and unfolded. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/56 "2011-04-13T15:33:10Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > With a gentle demeanor, I say “Bull. That’s just an excuse to be a dick 'cause you (not you, specifically) want to”. > > The norms (culture?) are what the players decide they are. You should have stopped at this point, and considered its implications. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/57 "2011-04-13T16:16:00Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > **Example** : Lord of the Rings Online has seasonal events. They appear as a fair type festival near Bree, and in the Shire. It includes a timed “horse race”, player competing against other players. (The reward is a mount token specific to that season.) Only five players may run the race at one time. (At least, the first season did that. I don’t know if it’s still capped and competitive.) When I got there, players were literally forming a line with their toons! > > It was notable enough that there was a “thank you” posted on the LotRO website by Turbine (the developers) for the (unexpected? heh) good behaviour. The game system would have allowed griefing (because the developers did not think to code anything to prevent it), but the players themselves chose the way this event developed and unfolded. I have seen this exact thing happen for both new boss arenas in FFXI and the various open-world “duel quests” in World of Warcraft–even on PvP servers, whichever faction has effective control near the NPCs will STILL form a line much of the time. At the same time, I think there’s in general a huge difference once you have elective PvP involved (in point of fact, I only play games where there’s an elective PvP component–I don’t like either “forced to all the time” or “peaceful all the time”)–once you click the button that says “I’m okay with my toon getting killed when I’m not in a safe zone”, that’s essentially a commitment to being okay with factional warfare in a game where that affects game mechanics. Even if that means your funeral service gets raided by a bunch of classless dicks from the guys you are at war with. To bring up a weird example from EVE that DOES involve Goons. When you die, you drop a corpse as a permanent item that others can take. (I have a few dozen stowed as war trophies) There’s a person who has a stretch of space they’ve dedicated to making a mock cemetery for these corpses floating in cans in space. After a while, Goon (in their JihadSwarm incarnation) decided to create a RPed “religious offense” to this (note, JihadSwarm is “religiously offended” by things like “operating a legal mining vessel in police-protected space”) and griefed it by suicide-destroying the cemetery structures and corpses. Nowadays, it’s been rebuilt, and last I checked (might not be the case now that JihadSwarm has reduced activity in general, having been essentially eclipsed by Hulkageddon) there was ALWAYS a patroller or two ready to shout for defensive help if a fleet started messing with the strutures. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/58 "2011-04-13T16:18:15Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > You should have stopped at this point, and considered its implications. Please explain. The post I was responding to said that there were no norms, because it’s a game, and not real. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/59 "2011-04-13T16:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=Zeriel] At the same time, I think there’s in general a huge difference once you have elective PvP involved (in point of fact, I only play games where there’s an elective PvP component–I don’t like either “forced to all the time” or “peaceful all the time”)–once you click the button that says “I’m okay with my toon getting killed when I’m not in a safe zone”, that’s essentially a commitment to being okay with factional warfare in a game where that affects game mechanics. Even if that means your funeral service gets raided by a bunch of classless dicks from the guys you are at war with. [/QUOTE] I am sorry for the confusion. I wasn’t espousing an opinion on the “memorial service incident” specifically, just the general assertion that anything goes 'cause it’s a game. That assertion could be applied to any behavior, including crashing the server, parking your mount on a mail box or quest giver, “stealing” during private trades, etc. As far as the memorial service goes, I don’t think it was “over the top” behavior by the party crashers. (It’s a PvP server. What were they thinking??) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574/60 "2011-04-13T16:28:01Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Please explain. > > The post I was responding to said that there were no norms, because it’s a game, and not real. The post you quoted didn’t say that, though–it said the “game world norms” are different from “real-life norms”. Which is essentially what you said–the players of the game define the norms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-goon-phenomenon/577574.md?page=4)