# The GOP Hates Americans (Health Insurance Exchanges) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797 "2013-09-27T13:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/21 "2013-09-27T14:20:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The GOP Hates Americans (Health Insurance Exchanges) Hate them right back. They make it really easy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/22 "2013-09-27T14:28:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe it’s part of his duty to the people of Texas. It’s like informing them of some potential natural disaster, even if a Federal-level service identifies it. But this isn’t a natural disaster. A natural disaster warning is not equally applicable to every state in the nation. Why duplicate your efforts fifty times over when you want to direct the entire nation to this federal service? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/23 "2013-09-27T14:30:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my objection would be grounded in the “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime,” concept. I believe it’s better in the long run to NOT give free food away, and spend the money on ways in which the erstwhile recipients of this free food can instead learn skills that let them get jobs and buy their own food. > > And I believe the same thing about medical care, as a general rule. > > I don’t agree that makes me a monster, or a target to be wiped from the face of the earth. Teach a man to do his own appendectomy and he no longer needs to eat for a lifetime? I’ve heard better analogies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/24 "2013-09-27T14:32:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > But this isn’t a natural disaster. A natural disaster warning is not equally applicable to every state in the nation. Why duplicate your efforts fifty times over when you want to direct the entire nation to this federal service? Rick Perry doesn’t have to duplicate his efforts- he should just help educate Texans about their health care options, or at the very least not throw up roadblocks towards such attempts. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/25 "2013-09-27T14:32:57Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I don’t think so. You can make an argument that Obamacare is bad because it will harm the American economy, or because you think it will ultimately cause healthcare costs to rise overall, or cause standards of care to drop, or something like that. I think, and other supporters of Obamacare think, that you would be dead wrong to believe these things, and have no good arguments to support them, but it is not _ipso facto_ crazy or immoral to try to argue, on those sorts of grounds, that the law should never never have been passed or should never be implemented. > > That is quite a different matter, however, from discouraging people from taking advantage of the system once it has (against your advice) been set up. That is flat out immoral. It is (on the most charitable interpretation I can think of) cynically playing party politics with people’s life and health. There really is no question that the individual people will be better off with health insurance than without it, even if it is true (which has not been demonstrated) that the system as a whole that has been set up to provide that insurance will ultimately prove to be bad for America. There are a myriad ways that signing up for Obamacare could make those who do so better off. One of the primary ways of cutting costs for the plans in the exchanges is to restrict the doctors that one may see. If the doctors that are on the plan are worse than those not on the plan, are rushed seeing patients, or are unavailable for appointments, signing up for Obamacare could make them worse off. Medicaid is similar in that it restricts costs by not paying for the best doctors and the results is that people on Medicaid have higher mortality than those who do not have [insurance](http://www.avikroy.org/2010/07/uva-study-surgical-patients-on-medicaid.html). Since Obamacare provides subsidies for people to buy insurance the more people sign up the more expensive it is. If it is to expensive changes will have to be made to either cut subsidies or cut coverage. So people who sign up could find themselves with worse coverage than they could get privately. Obamacare may prove to be so popular that it crowds out private insurance. Then once it proves too expensive it will be [replaced](http://news.yahoo.com/-harry-reid-says-obamacare-will-lead-to-single-payer-system--174601028.html)by government run health care. Then going to the doctor will be like going to the DMV except you die at the end. Shouldn’t elected officials look out for constituents long term interests instead of merely what works short term. I have a great alternative for Texans who don’t have insurance, magic beans. These beans will make sure you never get sick and will heal you if you get injured. Unfortunately magic does not come cheap and to afford them you will need the government to send me lots of money. If people think the government should not be sending me the money, does that mean they hate people, or have enough wisdom to beware people making outlandish claims? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/26 "2013-09-27T14:35:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Medicaid is similar in that it restricts costs by not paying for the best doctors and the results is that people on Medicaid have higher mortality than those who do not have insurance. [. . .] Obamacare may prove to be so popular that it crowds out private insurance. I believe you are more representative of the anti-Obamacare sentiment than **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/27 "2013-09-27T14:36:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my objection would be grounded in the “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime,” concept. I believe it’s better in the long run to NOT give free food away, and spend the money on ways in which the erstwhile recipients of this free food can instead learn skills that let them get jobs and buy their own food. > > And I believe the same thing about medical care, as a general rule. > > I don’t agree that makes me a monster, or a target to be wiped from the face of the earth. I think the OP was referring to the organization not the people. And the point here is when the fisherman gets sick and his insurance is revoked or denied, or we then decided that it is better to tell the fisherman to ignore a condition he has and continue fishing and die early or cause more expense to others if he goes to the emergency room. As much as he is maligned, Michael Moore’s point in the documentary Sicko was that while it was very cruel what is happening to the working poor, the focus of the documentary was that even the insured got a lousy deal in the old system. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/28 "2013-09-27T15:08:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How does this apply to the OP? It seems like just the opposite. If all Texans were educated about their new health care options in the ACA, there’s an excellent chance that many of them would become _less_ dependent on the rest of society. Many that don’t have insurance would get insurance, and with insurance, they wouldn’t be a burden on everyone else if they have to get medical care. Uninsured people who can’t pay for medical care “mooch” off everyone whenever they go to the hospital, because their unpaid bills just raise costs for everyone else. So if this program gives them the opportunity to stop mooching, it seems much more like teaching them to fish then giving them a fish. This is an excellent point. I’d be curious how Bricker or any other “anti-dependency conservative” responds. You can teach a man to fish and make him less dependent, but he still needs access to a fishing pole, and if he can’t afford to buy one, he’s still dependent on society for help. Likewise, people who can’t afford to get health insurance are still dependent. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/29 "2013-09-27T15:13:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my objection would be grounded in the “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime,” concept. I believe it’s better in the long run to NOT give free food away, and spend the money on ways in which the erstwhile recipients of this free food can instead learn skills that let them get jobs and buy their own food. The problem is that the Republicans remember the first part of this glurge (don’t give a fish) but forget the second part. The choice they give isn’t between giving a fish and teaching to fish, instead its between giving him a fish and just saying go out and fish, without giving him a fishing rod, or any instruction and fencing off the only river. ETA: Ninjad by Happy Lendervedder ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/30 "2013-09-27T15:18:01Z")
Every time I buy a book at Barnes & Noble I’m paying for all the shop lifted books as well, the same goes with my insurance premiums. The only fair solutions for responsible insurance holders is to let noninsurance holders die on the sidewalk (and just hope hospitals always get that right) or making sure everyone has insurance or pays a fine if they do not, which can go to supporting them when they are injured. Politics aside, it’s insurance holders (statistically more pale in skin tone and wealthier) that are the ones really gaining here, it’s odd the GOP doesn’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/31 "2013-09-27T15:47:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > old system. The Affordable Care Ace **is** the “old system.” The only difference is that there is now some things that are mandated to be covered, and a whole huge slew of extra overhead crap that doctors have to do just to get paid (E-Records and P4P suck if you are a doctor). Oh, and if you make below a certain amount, you are going to get insurance subsidized. So, instead of just subsidizing insurance costs for the poor directly, we now are roping everyone into the same system. It costs more for everyone to participate (insurance costs are rising, but the media says “not as much as we expected!”) in this system as we now have to add expensive options to the insurance coverage, such as pre-existing conditions and all of the other mandates, so the only people getting a good deal are the poor who get subsidies. They shouldn’t have passed this horrible thing that was already causing disruptions to the [Massachusetts health care system](http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/15/news/economy/massachusetts_healthcare_reform.fortune/index.htm) before we passed it. Single payer or even state-run medical care would have been preferable. But instead of looking for a health care plan that would actually work and convince people it would be better, Obama decided that his legacy had to be so complex and onerous that we are going to still be implementing it four years after he leaves the presidency. Great. I love it when people don’t have to take responsibility for the stuff they do. As for Rick Perry, what is he doing to prevent those 2.6 million people from getting onto the federal exchanges? If he’s just not advertising, well there’s no law or stipulation that requires he do that. It’s not like others (perhaps the Democrats that so despise him?) can’t advertise in Texas, either. Is he actively preventing them from going and getting the federal exchange health care? If not, then I can’t see this claim as anything other than partisan bickering. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/32 "2013-09-27T15:52:33Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Teach a man to do his own appendectomy and he no longer needs to eat for a lifetime? I’ve heard better analogies. No. Even a man who knows how to fish will die of scurvy, if fish is all he eats. This shows that you have interpreted the analogy too myopically. “How to fish,” is properly analogized to “how to earn,” not 'how to perform your own medical care." Money can be exchanged for all manner of goods and services in our system. The man who fishes can certainly eat his fill of fish, and sell his catch to the market, earning gelt to buy vegetables, meat, and high speed internet access. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/33 "2013-09-27T15:53:36Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The problem is that the Republicans remember the first part of this glurge (don’t give a fish) but forget the second part. The choice they give isn’t between giving a fish and teaching to fish, instead its between giving him a fish and just saying go out and fish, without giving him a fishing rod, or any instruction and fencing off the only river. I don’t agree that this characterization is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/34 "2013-09-27T15:54:36Z")
> [@Whiteknight](#): > > What if you’re actively spending some of that money actively making sure people don’t find out about the free food while not actually doing anything effective to “spend the money on ways in which the erstwhile recipients of this free food can instead learn skills that let them get jobs and buy their own food.” I don’t agree that’s happening here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/35 "2013-09-27T15:56:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Is the objection to encouraging people to participate in the exchanges that you’re voicing–that it causes dependency–being voiced by Rick Perry? If not, then your point doesn’t help him against the charges leveled by the OP. > > If you were in Rick Perry’s shoes and doing this, we might conclude you’re acting sincerely if harmfully and incorrectly. It is not at all clear to me that we can conclude the same of Perry. I have no idea what Perry’s motivation is, but Perry does not impress me as a deep thinker, so his objections may be no more solidly grounded than “Obama = bad.” But the OP does not limit his excoriation to Perry. He inveighs against the entire GOP. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/36 "2013-09-27T15:59:48Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > The Affordable Care Ace **is** the “old system.” Nope, this is denying that these changes already took place from the old one: > **[Rights & Protections](https://www.healthcare.gov/health-care-law-protections/)** > > Whether you need health coverage or have it already, the health care law offers rights and protections that make coverage fairer and easier to understand. > [@](#): > > ``` > Creates the Health Insurance Marketplace, a new way for individuals, families, and small businesses to get health coverage > Requires insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing health conditions > Helps you understand the coverage you’re getting > Holds insurance companies accountable for rate increases > Makes it illegal for health insurance companies to arbitrarily cancel your health insurance just because you get sick > Protects your choice of doctors > Covers young adults under 26 > Provides free preventive care > Ends lifetime and yearly dollar limits on coverage of essential health benefits > Guarantees your right to appeal > > ``` And the CNN report is dealing with problems that are solvable, as it was pointed before, many in Massachusetts are in agreement with the changes. [http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/state-issues/315505-mass-poll-finds-high-satisfaction-under-romneycare](http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/state-issues/315505-mass-poll-finds-high-satisfaction-under-romneycare) > [@](#): > > The vast majority of Massachusetts residents are satisfied with their healthcare under the state’s 2006 reform law, though costs and appointment wait times remain an issue, according to a new poll. > > Eighty-four percent expressed satisfaction with their healthcare, citing the quality of the care or “good access,” according to the Massachusetts Medical Society, a statewide physician group that conducted the poll. > > Another three in four said accessing the healthcare they need is not difficult, though the share of patients who had to wait a month or more to see a primary care doctor was up 7 points since last year, to 28 percent. > > The survey noted that the wait times were less of a problem for existing patients, or those that had seen a primary care doctor in the previous year, and for patients with serious conditions. > > The Massachusetts healthcare reform law, or “RomneyCare,” inspired ObamaCare. The two share several key components, including an individual mandate to provide insurance and a marketplace where the uninsured can purchase coverage. > > Monday’s poll sheds light on how Massachusetts residents have adjusted to the state’s reform since it was passed in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/37 "2013-09-27T16:05:16Z")
The USA right is pretty consistent. A core belief is that if people who they don’t approve of participate in something that’s generally good, those peoples’ participation will make the generally good thing worse. They believe this about marriage, health insurance, voting, paying lower taxes… So they set out to make sure these good things exclude as many undesirables as possible. Sure, it may also exclude a few people they would not mind participating, but it’s worth it to keep that thing pure. An allegedly scientific study showed that one value the USA right holds to, but not the USA left, is sanctity or purity. This might be the reason. This link has further links and a bit of explanation/summary of the study. [Conservatives V Liberals ethicsdefined.org | Ethics Defined](http://www.ethicsdefined.org/the-problem-with-morality/conservatives-vs-liberals/) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/38 "2013-09-27T16:05:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree that’s happening here. So how are the Republicans teaching the uninsured to fish? At the very least they could hand out scalpels and a copies of do-it yourself appendectomies for dummies. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/39 "2013-09-27T16:10:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Obamacare may prove to be so popular that it crowds out private insurance. Huh? This puzzles me since the whole idea is to level the playing field so that everyone can and must purchase private insurance instead of crowding it out. Seems to me that it levels the playing field and that those insurers who come up with the best balance between price and access to providers will win the most customers. Just as with any other capitalist endeavor. Also, if you look at many European counties with single payer, universal coverage you will find it based on private medical insurance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/40 "2013-09-27T16:14:47Z")
**Bricker**? What happens when there’s no fish left to catch? Teach them to hunt unicorn? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=3)