# The GOP Hates Americans (Health Insurance Exchanges) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797 "2013-09-27T13:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/61 "2013-09-27T18:40:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my objection would be grounded in the “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime,” concept. But teach 300 million men to fish, and there really aren’t going to be enough spots on the riverbank. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/62 "2013-09-27T18:41:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just FUD still Any proof that it’s FUD? It’s reasonable assertions based on the ACA law that’s come out thus far and some smidge of past governmental actions. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That post of yours deserves no respect, do you have any evidence that the poll was not done properly? You linked to an opinion piece based on a survey without any link to the survey itself. I can’t run down the list of poll reliability indicators without the actual survey in hand to make sure it was done correctly. So, how about you do so, since it was your evidence? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And thank you for showing grandpa to suck eggs. …What? > [@Iiandiiii](#): > > Not all Democrats in Congress supported single payer. There was not a majority in Congress for single payer… the ACA was pretty much the only health care reform bill that could get a majority to support it. This, I think, is going to come down to opinion. I honestly believe that they could have swung enough support for either version of healthcare, especially considering how much blood the public wanted after they passed ACA. > [@elucidator](#): > > People still keep making the assumption that all Democrats are lefties and liberals. Sadly, no. The average Democrat (which translates to state politics quite well) is actually fairly centrist when taken in general as a whole. But the Democratic National Party long-timers are so far left they are almost a satire of themselves. Sadly, the Republicans at both the national and state levels tend to be so far right that they are the satire of themselves. It would make life a lot easier if the extremes of both parties would come towards the center to actually, like, pass sane laws. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/63 "2013-09-27T18:42:42Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But teach 300 million men to fish, and there really aren’t going to be enough spots on the riverbank. So? Just go to war with Mexico and Canada for more coast line. DUH. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/64 "2013-09-27T18:48:25Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Any proof that it’s FUD? It’s reasonable assertions based on the ACA law that’s come out thus far and some smidge of past governmental actions. Sorry, but I participated on many previous treads to know that it is just FUD. > [@Farin](#): > > You linked to an opinion piece based on a survey without any link to the survey itself. I can’t run down the list of poll reliability indicators without the actual survey in hand to make sure it was done correctly. So, how about you do so, since it was your evidence? Point of order, you denied the poll right away with no evidence to support what you claimed regarding the poll. The way things work here is that the ones making such a claim need to bring the evidence. > [@Farin](#): > > …What? That was for you global warming dig, suffice to say is that you miss that what I see on the Global Warming debates is very similar to what I see on the Health Care Debate, piles and piles of FUD from the opponents. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/65 "2013-09-27T19:00:06Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > But the Democratic National Party long-timers are so far left they are almost a satire of themselves. This seems like a comically inaccurate statement. The far-left Democrats, like Kucinich (or perhaps Bernie Sanders, who’s not even a Democrat) are pretty marginalized. Most of the big name Democrats (Obama, the Clintons, even Pelosi and Howard Dean) are, at most, center-left. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/66 "2013-09-27T19:13:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But teach 300 million men to fish, and there really aren’t going to be enough spots on the riverbank. Looks like **Cheesesteak** ninja’d me in post #52. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/67 "2013-09-27T19:17:57Z")
What I see is that the ACA is missing a lot in the containment of costs, but this is once again a feature, not a bug of the old Republican plan; still as many European countries show, it is a good framework to eventually start looking at the areas were the expense was reaching insane levels, As Hans Rosling would tell you, It seems that Americans do not want to compete in matters of health care. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/auSFX0o3uFU/maxresdefault.jpg "Hans Rosling's answers to the TED and Reddit community interview") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auSFX0o3uFU) I agree on other of the points Rosling made regarding the relationship between a populace’s health and wealth. Health drives wealth more effectively than the opposite arrangement. That is: a healthy population can prosper economically. Sure, on the wealthy side I can see more costs are likely, but the current class discrimination (with a side order of racism on some elements opposed to the ACA) is a factor on why this is fought tooth and nail. There are powerful interests that do not want to see things like [Job Lock](http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/job-lock.html) to end, [to see small business starting with less of the ball and chain of very expensive health premiums](http://www.stlamerican.com/business/local_business/article_7b802564-f49c-11e2-b3fc-001a4bcf887a.html), to see local and foreign business set shop in the USA as the cost of doing business is less. It was for that and other reasons that IMHO the opposition to health care reform only wants less freedom for Americans, and to protect the Feudal lords from competition to many of their corporations, and not only for the ones from the heath care industry. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/68 "2013-09-27T19:43:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By analogy, I might object if you started giving away food to people every day, because I believe that such an action will lead people to develop a dependence on you and your food giveaway as opposed to the wherewithal to earn money and buy food themselves. > > You might then say the same things: Sure, he’s against FireflyFreeFood. I understand that. But it’s there. Millions of our hungry citizens have the opportunity to obtain free food that fills their stomachs! Only a monster would object! > > But my objection would be grounded in the “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime,” concept. I believe it’s better in the long run to NOT give free food away, and spend the money on ways in which the erstwhile recipients of this free food can instead learn skills that let them get jobs and buy their own food. POPE FRANCIS “The human person and human dignity risk being turned into vague abstractions in the face of issues like the use of force, war, malnutrition, marginalization, the violation of basic liberties, and financial speculation. All these presently affect the price of food, treating it like just another merchandise, overlooking its primary function. Our duty is to continue to insist, in the present international context, that the human person and human dignity are not simply catchwords, but pillars for creating common rules and structures that can go beyond purely pragmatic or technical approaches. In doing so,we can eliminate divisions and bridge differences.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/69 "2013-09-27T19:54:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This seems like a comically inaccurate statement. The far-left Democrats, like Kucinich (or perhaps Bernie Sanders, who’s not even a Democrat) are pretty marginalized. Most of the big name Democrats (Obama, the Clintons, even Pelosi and Howard Dean) are, at most, center-left. George Wallace used to say there wasn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats - and this was Humphrey and Nixon. Extremists seem to be unable to see any spread in parties far away from their position. BTW, sampling theory says that 1,000 samples is just about enough to get good results for any population size. My Sampling Theory book is at home, but the number of samples is probably pretty reasonable, and I’m sure the uncertainty would be published. Someone saying that the poll is done wrong is like a creationist saying that a geologist can’t tell quartz from sandstone. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/70 "2013-09-27T20:03:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sorry, but I participated on many previous treads to know that it is just FUD. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The way things work here is that the ones making such a claim need to bring the evidence. I see. There is no room for opinion on political topics in your FUD assessment, hm? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Point of order, you denied the poll right away with no evidence to support what you claimed regarding the poll. As I stated, you linked an opinion piece without a link to the underlying survey, so I couldn’t begin to review it for accuracy. So you don’t have evidence to begin with. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was for you global warming dig, suffice to say is that you miss that what I see on the Global Warming debates is very similar to what I see on the Health Care Debate, piles and piles of FUD from the opponents. That still doesn’t explain the actual text you put down. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/71 "2013-09-27T20:10:54Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > I see. There is no room for opinion on political topics in your FUD assessment, hm? As many times mentioned in the other debates, that by “coincidence” also include many people from the right, you are entitled to your opinions but not the facts. > [@Farin](#): > > As I stated, you linked an opinion piece without a link to the underlying survey, so I couldn’t begin to review it for accuracy. So you don’t have evidence to begin with. Like if that does not tell others that you only admit an inability to Google. > **[Massachusetts Medical Society: Search Results](https://www.massmed.org/News-and-Publications/MMS-News-Releases/MMS-2013-Public-Opinion-Survey-Shows--High-Satisfaction-with-Health-Care,-Easy-Access-to-Care,--But-Cost,-Affordability-Remain-Most-Important-Issues/#.UkXkhX-Hq8B)** > [@](#): > > Waltham – August 5 – Seven years into health care reform, and despite longer wait times for appointments with physicians, Massachusetts residents remain as satisfied with the health care they receive as they were before reform began and are finding access to the care they need without difficulty, according to a public opinion poll released today by the Massachusetts Medical Society, the statewide association of physicians. > > The poll, seeking the opinions and perceptions of Massachusetts adults on a range of health care issues, also revealed that residents think the cost of care is the most important health care issue facing the Commonwealth, that residents have limited knowledge and unfavorable opinions of the new types of health plans and care models, and that more adults are using the emergency room for care. > > “This year’s survey has good news for patients and physicians as well as some warning signs,” said Ronald Dunlap, M.D., president of the Massachusetts Medical Society, who noted that the latest results compare favorably with data from previous public opinion polls. > [@Farin](#): > > That still doesn’t explain the actual text you put down. :dubious: Because it was a Gish gallop with no supporting evidence or cites from your part. Just like many contrarians in the climate change debates do. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/72 "2013-09-27T20:19:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This seems like a comically inaccurate statement. The far-left Democrats, like Kucinich (or perhaps Bernie Sanders, who’s not even a Democrat) are pretty marginalized. Most of the big name Democrats (Obama, the Clintons, even Pelosi and Howard Dean) are, at most, center-left. Yes, the “big names” are in the middle ground of the Democratic party…but you don’t put your crazies in front of the camera, if you can help it. However, you have far lefts like Blumenthal and Udall who hold the party line like it was saving them from the abyss. People like Joe Manchin and Brian Nelson are actual centrists, where as people like Max Baucus and Michael Bennet are Democratic party middle-ground holders. If you go and look at Blumenthal and Udall’s platforms, they are close (relative to their other Democrats, at least) to the demonizing caricatures that the Republicans draw. If you look at people like Obama and Howard Dean, no, that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/73 "2013-09-27T20:24:32Z")
So, when the Republicans go from moderately conservative to batshit reactionary, the center stays the same? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/74 "2013-09-27T20:38:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > POPE FRANCIS > “The human person and human dignity risk being turned into vague abstractions in the face of issues like the use of force, war, malnutrition, marginalization, the violation of basic liberties, and financial speculation. All these presently affect the price of food, treating it like just another merchandise, overlooking its primary function. Our duty is to continue to insist, in the present international context, that the human person and human dignity are not simply catchwords, but pillars for creating common rules and structures that can go beyond purely pragmatic or technical approaches. In doing so,we can eliminate divisions and bridge differences.” MARILYN MONROE: "I believe that everything happens for a reason. People change so that you can learn to let go, things go wrong so that you appreciate them when they’re right, you believe lies so you eventually learn to trust no one but yourself, and sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.” Oh, wait - is this the thread for posting random quotations from people or not? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/75 "2013-09-27T20:39:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But you certainly impose certification requirements on fishing teachers, to guard the public against people who hold themselves out to be fishing teachers but don’t actually possess the ability to fish or teach fishing. > > And I argue that this is what’s being described in the link you provide. Of course, we do run into issues when a Masters in Marine Biology is required to teach fishing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/76 "2013-09-27T20:40:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But teach 300 million men to fish, and there really aren’t going to be enough spots on the riverbank. Fortunately, in the realm of job skills and creation, the “riverbank” is so wide that there is no danger of overcrowding. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/77 "2013-09-27T20:41:06Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Of course, we do run into issues when a Masters in Marine Biology is required to teach fishing. Indeed. And to the extent that this is happening, it’s absolutely appropriate to correct it. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/78 "2013-09-27T20:46:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As many times mentioned in the other debates, that by “coincidence” also include many people from the right, you are entitled to your opinions but not the facts. All you stated was your opinion that it was FUD, then. I gotcha. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Like if that does not tell others that you only admit an inability to Google. > > [Massachusetts Medical Society: Oops!](http://www.massmed.org/News-and-Publications/MMS-News-Releases/MMS-2013-Public-Opinion-Survey-Shows--High-Satisfaction-with-Health-Care,-Easy-Access-to-Care,--But-Cost,-Affordability-Remain-Most-Important-Issues/#.UkXkhX-Hq8B) So, you linked the news release of the study. With, funnily enough, LESS of the information I’m looking for. I’m smitten with regret at my own googling skills. Perhaps you should refine your own skills and find the result [one link down](http://www.massmed.org/poll2013/) on Google? Sort of like I did when you first linked it where I went and read the actual study. And it’s still an incredibly small sample size and their methodology gave “every household in the state an equal chance of receiving a call.” Good. That doesn’t explain what they consider a “household” as. Each phone number? Is it the method that doesn’t call cell phones? The method that does? Not calling cell phones cuts out an inordinate number of poor and young from the demographic. But you know what? You’re right. We should accept this survey despite it’s flaws. Now, let’s look at all of the good news it shows! > [@](#): > > most Massachusetts residents believe that the cost of the health care services they utilized in the last year was more expensive than the year before (65%) – including 28% who believe that their health care has gotten much more expensive. Hm. Making things more expensive. > [@](#): > > Consistent with the finding that access to care is not the most pressing issue for Massachusetts adults, a variety of measures indicate that residents have relatively little difficulty in accessing the services they need. Three-quarters (73%) report that accessing the care they need is not difficult, which is a slight decrease from 2012 (78%). A 5% drop in the accessibility of health care. > [@](#): > > As has been the case since 2004, most Massachusetts residents are generally satisfied with the health care they receive. Nearly six-in-ten residents (56%) are very satisfied with the health care they received last year, and another 28% are somewhat satisfied. These numbers have remained highly stable for the past eight years. So 56% of people are very satisfied, 28% are neutral and 16% are below neutral satisfaction. > [@](#): > > Residents report waiting longer for appointments with primary care doctors than in past years – 42% of respondents who saw a PCP last year reported waiting more than two weeks, up from 32% who said the same last year. So, residents waiting more than two weeks to see their Primary Care Physician jumped 10%. > [@](#): > > When residents learned that a new law allows nurse practitioners and physician’s assistants to serve as primary care providers for the purpose of increasing the number of medical professionals available to patients, two-thirds of Massachusetts adults indicated that they would rather see a medical doctor than a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant. However, two-thirds of Massachusetts residents indicated that they are either very likely or somewhat likely to make an appointment with a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant in the future, especially if they are likely to have a shorter wait time. People don’t want to see a nurse practitioner or a PA unless it’ll reduce their wait time. > [@](#): > > Approximately three-in-ten Massachusetts residents report visiting an emergency department at a hospital in the past year – a slight increase from 2012, when one-quarter of residents did so. Younger residents and those on a government-backed insurance plan (e.g. Medicare and MassHealth) were more likely than others to utilize the emergency department. > Most of those who visited an emergency department did so because they had a “serious but not life-threatening medical problem that required immediate attention.” One-third of those who went to an emergency room indicate that the fact that “the emergency room is the easiest place to get care” was a major factor behind their utilization of the ER. So it’s not reducing the use of an ER, which is one of the things the health plans were supposed to help with. You get preventative care to reduce the need for waiting to the last minute to get urgent care (ostensibly saving lives and reducing costs, which is a good goal.) I’m glad I accept that survey, now. Thank you, **GIGObuster**. It tells me that I am not distributing FUD and that I have legitimate concerns about what the ACA will do over the long term. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Because it was a Gish gallop with no supporting evidence or cites from your part. Just like many contrarians in the climate change debates do. Wrong point. I was addressing this: > [@](#): > > And thank you for showing grandpa to suck eggs. What does that text mean? You said it was for the dig about climate change, but the sentence still doesn’t make sense. I haven’t shown any grandfathers to be sucking on eggs. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/79 "2013-09-27T21:06:01Z")
One more fish aphorism and I’m going to rupture my swim bladder. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/80 "2013-09-27T21:28:34Z")
Anyone see Chris Hayes [interview](http://video.msnbc.msn.com/all-in-/53118511#53118511) some crazy Republican representative from North Carolina last night? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=5)