# The GOP Hates Americans (Health Insurance Exchanges) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797 "2013-09-27T13:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/101 "2013-09-28T01:03:28Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > More attributing to me that I have never said, nor a position I do not take. And if your anecdote was in a place where you were covered for Medicaid, why did you go out of country? > > Did you intentionally leave it vague so you could make any further statement you wished instead of being locked into what you said? Are you for real? The ACA will benefit many who have no insurance nor a doctor now. Are you still willing to say the people that will get health care access are not a factor? > [@Farin](#): > > So, you post an opinion piece from before the election that is one person (or at most one medical center) advocating for Latinos to support Obama. It’s not even a survey. It’s an editorial opinion. > > On top of that you ascribe your own meaning to said link and how all the minorities and poor voted for Obama because of the health care law. > > Now, if we look at [actual exit poll data](http://www.denverpost.com/election2012/ci_21944600/ap-interactive-exit-poll-shows-gender-age-split), you can see that more Florida Latino voters, specifically, voted for Romney instead of Obama compared to the National elections in 2012. 39% Latino Vote in Florida versus 27% National. This means that in the 2012 elections, Florida Latinos were less sure of Obama than their peers nationwide. > > In 2008, [for comparison](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1), National held 33% was Latino for McCain and Florida held 42% Latino vote for McCain. So Obama was still less popular amongst Florida Latinos than their peers. > > Granted, over the 4 years there was a 3% overall erosion from Republican to Democrat among the Florida Latino voters, but that’s not the glowing endorsement of health care that you want to make it out to be. I mentioned elsewhere not just Florida or Colorado, and not just minorities, and Romney lost Florida and Colorado last time I checked. > [@Farin](#): > > Why are you trying to hide behind ageism? I don’t know your age. I don’t know if you are older or younger than me. And I certainly don’t care what your age is when I respond to the words you leave on the screen, which has no age attached to them. :dubious: No, the point stands, you are just making an argument from ignorance. That is ignorance of a very common figure of speech, and it does refer more to the experience one has, rather than the age one has. Showing that indeed you are ignorant of common English-language sayings, among other things like who actually lost in Florida and the factors that made many to vote as they did. [http://www.npr.org/2012/06/28/155941682/the-reaction-in-florida-from-protesting-to-partying](http://www.npr.org/2012/06/28/155941682/the-reaction-in-florida-from-protesting-to-partying) > [@](#): > > Mercado tells NPR’s Robert Siegel she didn’t expect the ruling to go the way it did. She says that if the Supreme Court had thrown out the health care law, she would have been protesting instead of partying. > > Between working at low-paying jobs or at part-time jobs, Hispanics are the ethnic group most likely to be uninsured. > > “I would say nationwide the percentage was, more or less, 34 percent. And here in Central Florida, I would say it’s about 60 percent or more that are uninsured,” Mercado said. “It’s a hardworking population. Unfortunately, they cannot afford the premiums. And that’s really what this law is all about. It’s about making insurance more affordable.” > > Much of the relief that the Affordable Care Act would bring to the people served by Mercado’s group would be through expanding Medicaid eligibility. And while the impact of Thursday’s ruling on that part of the law was still unclear, the feeling at Hispanic Health Initiatives was: This was a win. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/102 "2013-09-28T01:12:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If you claim that Romneycare is making things more expensive, you would have to demonstrate that people in other states did not see an increase in insurance or health care costs. Think you can? If not, then your claim that Romneycare was responsible for the increase is invalid. Healthcare costs are increasing everywhere - in Mass at least everyone was able to get insurance. This wasn’t my claim, it was the claim of the Survey that people believed that health care was getting more expensive. Whether that was true or not (perception does not always equal reality) wasn’t addressed in the survey. > [@Voyager](#): > > No, a slight increase in the number of people who find access difficult. That does not mean that they didn’t have access. Driving to work is more difficult once summer is over - but I still get there. “Accessibility” is not “access”. I will rephrase it in a different way: 5% of people consider it harder in some way to get health care. If it matters, there were only 13 people responding that there was an issue with accessibility. “Access to care/Access to Doctors” was a count of 7 and “Access to health insurance” was 6. Not exactly a horrible situation. > [@Voyager](#): > > No, somewhat satisfied is not neutral. Typically measures of satisfaction combine these two categories. The neutral category is given as neither satisfied or dissatisfied. That makes 84% satisfied, which is damn good. I wonder how the rest of the country feels? You are right. I read the wrong answer set and ascribed a 3-answer set instead of a 4-answer set. (Very/Somewhat was on both sides) I apologize for misleading. > [@Voyager](#): > > One impact is that more people are going to be able to see a doctor which will increase wait times until the number of doctors increases. However 10% waiting an extra week for a non-emergency visit is far better than some number being excluded period, or being forced to use the emergency room for treatment that should be given by a PCP. This I won’t make a value statement on, as I think it largely depends on if we can address the PCP shortage we already have in this country. If we can satiate the current (2013) demand for PCPs over the next 5 years and match the demand curve as it goes up for the next 10 years, we’ll probably be fine. If the last ten years of doom and gloom about PCP shortages come to pass, it’ll probably get much worse. > [@Voyager](#): > > Natch. But this kind of thing would help lower health care costs. We can’t expect to combat cost increases without changing anything. This is depending on the previous point. We may stretch both the AP/NP personnel right along with the PCPs if there is an actual PCP shortage. This may also be a Massachusetts-only cultural thing, a blip as people’s attitudes adjust, or just an artifact of the survey. > [@Voyager](#): > > What is the percentage unnecessary use in other states? I can buy that some people are used to the ER, and may not have a doctor. They need to work harder. There could be several explanations: They could be waiting too long to get into a doctor/AP/NP or they could just be more young and reckless college frat parties these days (and they should stay off our lawns). [Here](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ahcd/nhamcs_emergency/2010_ed_web_tables.pdf)says that unneeded ER use nation wide was 12.7 percent in 2010. (Non urgent and no triage numbers) > [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, do you have a cite saying that pre-existing conditions are rare? The problem goes beyond people who don’t get insurance. I have one - I suspect most people over 50, certainly over 55 do. I have good coverage from my employer, and if I moved to another big company their insurance company would be forced to ensure me. Obama [originally said](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/sep/27/barack-obama/obama-says-half-americans-have-preexisting-conditi/) that “upto half” of people have a pre-existing condition, but that was based on estimations and the range is 19% to 50%. Basically, if you have a heart disease, you are covered when you find it and if you switch insurances you aren’t covered (a very simplistic nutshell assessment) so if you have insurance and know about it, you’re fine until you switch. If you have or don’t have insurance and don’t know about it, you’re fine until you find out about it. This clause, though, is something that’s been advocated for a long time before ACA and it’s one of those statistically nebulous areas (how do you prove that 100 million people, or whatever, have preexisting conditions they don’t know about?). I tend to think it’s low because about 1/4 of the people that the administration expected to enroll actually enrolled in the government’s insurance for people who couldn’t get insurance until the health exchanges actually enrolled. > [@Voyager](#): > > However if I wanted to set up a start up or go into consulting I’d be in deep shit until ACA kicks in. How much innovation has been lost because people who would have trouble getting insurance were discouraged from starting the kinds of small businesses that make America great? I have been involved with several startup businesses. How it can be handled (in the olden times) could be that you simply carry catastrophic insurance for your employees (or yourself in a Single Proprietor setup) and pay your way, either directly for your employees or through an additional salary stipend. My catastrophic coverage kicked in at $10,000 for each incident and I paid about $250 a month for myself (450 for family, which I didn’t have at the time). Not insanely awesome, but it was available. Also, the ACA kicks in in January. i think you can wait to stick it to the man for 4 months. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/103 "2013-09-28T01:16:13Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Now, if we look at [actual exit poll data](http://www.denverpost.com/election2012/ci_21944600/ap-interactive-exit-poll-shows-gender-age-split), you can see that more Florida Latino voters, specifically, voted for Romney instead of Obama compared to the National elections in 2012. 39% Latino Vote in Florida versus 27% National. This means that in the 2012 elections, Florida Latinos were less sure of Obama than their peers nationwide. :dubious: The cite you are using reports that Hispanics/Latinos voted 60% in favor of Obama and 39% did go for Romney. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/104 "2013-09-28T01:20:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :dubious: > > The cite you are using reports that Hispanics/Latinos voted 60% in favor of Obama and 39% did go for Romney. In comparison to the National elections, More people voted for Romney in Florida. 39% of Latino voters favored Romney in 2012 versus 27% of Latino voters nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/105 "2013-09-28T01:23:44Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > In comparison to the National elections, More people voted for Romney in Florida. 39% of Latino voters favored Romney in 2012 versus 27% of Latino voters nationwide. So how that shows that the ACA \*\*was \*\*\*_not \*\*a factor there and elsewhere with Hispanics when 60%_, still a majority, voted for Obama? - 71% nationwide BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/106 "2013-09-28T01:41:12Z")
The GOP is losing the PR war on this issue. I think they should switch tactics. Emphasize that using Obamacare will require a photo ID. That should spark a Democratic rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/107 "2013-09-28T01:44:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Are you for real? > > The ACA will benefit many who have no insurance nor a doctor now. Are you still willing to say the people that will get health care access are not a factor? Are you still ignoring the fact that I advocate for replacement of it with a system that is better? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I mentioned elsewhere not just Florida or Colorado, and not just minorities, and Romney lost Florida and Colorado last time I checked. Really? The quote I responded to was: [QUOTE=GIGObuster] As it turn out, in places like Florida, in the last presidential election, many voted for Obama as it was clear that health care for the working poor and many minorities was on the line. > **[San Diego Union-Tribune](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)** > > San Diego, California and National News [/QUOTE] And the link was an opinion piece directed towards Latinos. There was no comment I was referring to that indicated anything other than Florida or maybe San Ysidro Medical Center. That’s what I went with. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > No, the point stands, you are just making an argument from ignorance. That is ignorance of a very common figure of speech, and it does refer more to the experience one has, rather than the age one has. Showing that indeed you are ignorant of common English-language sayings, among other things like who actually lost in Florida and the factors that made many to vote as they did. > > [The Reaction In Florida: From Protesting To Partying : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/06/28/155941682/the-reaction-in-florida-from-protesting-to-partying) Your link talks about an advocate for the ACA partying and a Republican decrying the ACA supreme court decision. I don’t see what this is supposed to prove about “English-language sayings”. Floridian elections, or anything else. The closest it comes to useful is an estimation of how many people are uninsured in Central Florida (not the whole state) but it doesn’t back that up with a data source. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > So how that shows that the ACA was not a factor there and elsewhere with Hispanics when 60%\*, still a majority, voted for Obama? I didn’t make that claim. I said that, in Florida Latinos (what you and your link mentioned independently) there was not a vast swing away from Rs. And that R was more likely in Florida among Latinos compared to the National polls. Additionally, from 2008, that number dropped by 3% for the Rs. I further opined that a swing of 3% isn’t a glowing recommendation for ACA (and that was assuming that the ACA was the ONLY reason people switched, and that there were no other possible reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/108 "2013-09-28T01:45:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The GOP is losing the PR war on this issue. I think they should switch tactics. Yeah, they are doing what amounts to taking their ball and going home. That never really makes you a favorite of anyone. > [@Bricker](#): > > Emphasize that using Obamacare will require a photo ID. That should spark a Democratic rebellion. I’ve seen this before and never really researched it. What are people’s problems with photo ID? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/109 "2013-09-28T02:04:20Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Are you still ignoring the fact that I advocate for replacement of it with a system that is better? I already inferred that, it is indeed better, but that is not in the menu, so stop avoiding what I’m mentioning now. So, I’m just saying that many people that have no insurance nor doctors will benefit now, and they are a factor and one big reason for the ACA to be. > [@Farin](#): > > Your link talks about an advocate for the ACA partying and a Republican decrying the ACA supreme court decision. I don’t see what this is supposed to prove about “English-language sayings”. Floridian elections, or anything else. The closest it comes to useful is an estimation of how many people are uninsured in Central Florida (not the whole state) but it doesn’t back that up with a data source. That was just the set up, I wanted to see if you would show if you are aware of the data out there, but then again it is not my problem if you are ignorant of a very important item when coming to discuss it. > **[V. Top Issues in this Year’s Presidential Campaign](https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2012/10/11/top-issues-in-this-years-presidential-campaign/)** > > The survey finds that education, jobs and the economy, and health care are the top issues for Latinos in this year’s presidential campaign. A majority > [@](#): > > Latino Voters Support Obama by 3-1 Ratio, But Are Less Certain than Others about Voting > > The survey finds that education, jobs and the economy, and health care are the top issues for Latinos in this year’s presidential campaign. A majority (55%) of Latino registered voters say the issue of education is “extremely important” to them personally. This is followed closely by jobs and the economy (54%) and health care (50%) As it turns out we did vote more than many expected, specially what the Republicans wishfully did not expect. > [@Farin](#): > > I didn’t make that claim. I said that, in Florida Latinos (what you and your link mentioned independently) there was not a vast swing away from Rs. And that R was more likely in Florida among Latinos compared to the National polls. Additionally, from 2008, that number dropped by 3% for the Rs. I further opined that a swing of 3% isn’t a glowing recommendation for ACA (and that was assuming that the ACA was the ONLY reason people switched, and that there were no other possible reasons). Of course Florida is different than other states for having many Cuban Americans that are very conservative and usually Republicans, unfortunately for you the social issues like Health care made the usual 70% of Cuban Americans give to Republican candidates to turn into a virtual tie that benefited Obama in the state, as the Pew poll showed, Health care was (and remains) a big issue among Hispanics. [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/12/3094299/winner-of-cuban-american-vote.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/12/3094299/winner-of-cuban-american-vote.html) > [@](#): > > FIU professors Dario Moreno and Kevin Hill reported Monday their analysis of tallies from selected precincts in Miami-Dade County indicated GOP candidate Mitt Romney won up to 59 percent of the Cuban vote. > > Miami Democratic pollster Bendixen & Amandi International, however, reported Monday its own analysis of the county’s 48 largest Hispanic districts showed Obama won the Cuban vote, 51-49 percent over Romney. > > The dispute involves competing visions of whether the Cuban-American vote has moved beyond its half-century-old support for the GOP. But while the two sides disagree on the numbers, it appears clear that Obama received more Cuban votes last week than he did in 2008. > > … > > Bendixen, defending his numbers last week, noted that older Cubans who tend to be more conservative are dying off and younger Cuban-Americans believed to be more liberal are reaching voting age. > > And since Cuba was not one of the main issues of the long presidential campaign, Bendixen added, perhaps Cuban-American voters selected their presidential favorite based less on politics than on social or economic issues. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/110 "2013-09-28T02:41:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fortunately, in the realm of job skills and creation, the “riverbank” is so wide that there is no danger of overcrowding. That’s facile, unproven, and not well-supported by the facts on the ground at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/111 "2013-09-28T02:43:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I already inferred that, it is indeed better, but that is not in the menu, so stop avoiding what I’m mentioning now. > > So, I’m just saying that many people that have no insurance nor doctors will benefit now, and they are a factor and one big reason for the ACA to be. I have never said that people with no insurance or doctors won’t get insurance and doctors. The closest I have said is that there will be delays as shown by your study in Massachusetts. I **have** said repeatedly that the ACA will cause a burden as a whole and that it should be ripped out and replaced with Single Payer. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was just the set up, I wanted to see if you would show if you are aware of the data out there, but then again it is not my problem if you are ignorant of a very important item when coming to discuss it. [V. Top Issues in this Year’s Presidential Campaign | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/10/11/top-issues-in-this-years-presidential-campaign/) You made a statement you didn’t have any interest in arguing, or even made a bunch of sense about, in response to a data set I provided that showed that there wasn’t much of a flee from R in Florida to combat an assertion that a huge number of Latinos left R in Florida due to Health Care. So I’m ignorant because I don’t know where the wandering GIGObuster train will go next? Interesting to note. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > As it turns out we did vote more than many expected, specially what the Republicans wishfully did not expect. Yes, but that’s not a “Latinos in Florida” issue. Republicans have been losing minority voters for awhile because their actions and policies aren’t friendly to them, overall. Just because they didn’t expect that half of the Cubans would defect in a single election just says that the Republicans need to actually learn about their constituents. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course Florida is different than other states for having many Cuban Americans that are very conservative and usually Republicans, unfortunately for you the social issues like Health care made the usual 70% of Cuban Americans give to Republican candidates to turn into a virtual tie that benefited Obama in the state, as the Pew poll showed, Health care was (and remains) a big issue among Hispanics. > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/12/3094299/winner-of-cuban-american-vote.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/12/3094299/winner-of-cuban-american-vote.html) That doesn’t really change the information I presented. 3% total of Latinos left R in Florida from 2008 to 2012. Including the Cubans. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/112 "2013-09-28T02:51:26Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > I have never said that people with no insurance or doctors won’t get insurance and doctors. The closest I have said is that there will be delays as shown by your study in Massachusetts. I **have** said repeatedly that the ACA will cause a burden as a whole and that it should be ripped out and replaced with Single Payer. So we have to assume you are not aware of what “I’m just saying” means. > [@Farin](#): > > You made a statement you didn’t have any interest in arguing, or even made a bunch of sense about, in response to a data set I provided that showed that there wasn’t much of a flee from R in Florida to combat an assertion that a huge number of Latinos left R in Florida due to Health Care. > > So I’m ignorant because I don’t know where the wandering GIGObuster train will go next? Interesting to note. No, what that shows is that you can not let go of the personal attack and others can see only that you will not deal with what was posted. > [@Farin](#): > > Yes, but that’s not a “Latinos in Florida” issue. Republicans have been losing minority voters for awhile because their actions and policies aren’t friendly to them, overall. Just because they didn’t expect that half of the Cubans would defect in a single election just says that the Republicans need to actually learn about their constituents. And that was the point, Health care is also part of those unfriendly policies. > [@Farin](#): > > That doesn’t really change the information I presented. 3% total of Latinos left R in Florida from 2008 to 2012. Including the Cubans. And I’m just saying 🙂 that in the big scheme of things what you are trying to press is not as important as the bottom line, most Hispanics did look at Health care as an important issue in this election. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/113 "2013-09-28T03:05:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are they the 13.7% that don’t know how to fish? There’s a reason they call it “fishing” and not “catching”, you know. The best fishermen in the world get skunked sometimes, and it doesn’t mean they are unprepared. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/114 "2013-09-28T03:24:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So we have to assume you are not aware of what “I’m just saying” means. Cute isn’t smart. it’s just cute. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > No, what that shows is that you can not let go of the personal attack and others can see only that you will not deal with what was posted. Or I’m tired of looking at pointless links and I’m not keen on continuing to see you not prove anything? Even looking at it, now, Health Care isn’t the highest priority. It’s several points behind the topics of Jobs/Economy and Education as number two and number one, respectively. So only 1/3% of that 3% I gave you 100% of should be attributed to health care (less if you want to include everything on that list). Unless you can provide something that surveys why people voted like they did instead of trying to correlate exit polls to opinion polls taken at different times. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And that was the point, Health care is also part of those unfriendly policies. Yes, but it was only 1/3rd (or less of) the point, humorously enough. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I’m just saying 🙂 that in the big scheme of things what you are trying to press is not as important as the bottom line, most Hispanics did look at Health care as an important issue in this election. So I shouldn’t advocate for a better future? I can’t say we should tear this down and replace it with something better…because why? Even if it won’t happen before they shut down the G on Monday, what if we can get it on for 2014’s midterm sessions when the Dems storm the Rs as you think will happen? Also, your poll isn’t MOST. it’s 50% of Hispanics reported on the multiple-choice questionnaire that Health Care was of the highest importance. However, MOST Hispanics rate Education and Jobs/Economy as critical items for the 2012 election, according to that poll. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/115 "2013-09-28T04:15:25Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Also, your poll isn’t MOST. it’s 50% of Hispanics reported on the multiple-choice questionnaire that Health Care was of the highest importance. However, MOST Hispanics rate Education and Jobs/Economy as critical items for the 2012 election, according to that poll. As I said, it remains an important issue, of course we are not discussing education or jobs/economy so me thinks thou dost protest too much. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/116 "2013-09-28T04:37:15Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > This wasn’t my claim, it was the claim of the Survey that people believed that health care was getting more expensive. Whether that was true or not (perception does not always equal reality) wasn’t addressed in the survey. Having people say in a survey that the sky is blue in MA doesn’t imply it is green in VT. Of course they say costs are increasing. They are. They are everywhere. They are even increasing in places with single payer plans. The reasonable question is whether they are increasing faster than MA than elsewhere. > [@](#): > > “Accessibility” is not “access”. I will rephrase it in a different way: 5% of people consider it harder in some way to get health care. > > If it matters, there were only 13 people responding that there was an issue with accessibility. “Access to care/Access to Doctors” was a count of 7 and “Access to health insurance” was 6. > > Not exactly a horrible situation. And probably in the statistical noise. At one point my high end group was short of doctors and it too forever to schedule a checkup. But my access to important care was unimpeded. I don’t know if that is the case there. > [@](#): > > This I won’t make a value statement on, as I think it largely depends on if we can address the PCP shortage we already have in this country. If we can satiate the current (2013) demand for PCPs over the next 5 years and match the demand curve as it goes up for the next 10 years, we’ll probably be fine. If the last ten years of doom and gloom about PCP shortages come to pass, it’ll probably get much worse. > > This is depending on the previous point. We may stretch both the AP/NP personnel right along with the PCPs if there is an actual PCP shortage. This may also be a Massachusetts-only cultural thing, a blip as people’s attitudes adjust, or just an artifact of the survey. My understanding is that this is a very real shortage, especially in rural areas. It is going to need another set of initiatives to fix. Maybe a larger pool of paying patients in rural areas will attract PCPs, but giving up the big bucks surgeons get must be hard. > [@](#): > > I have been involved with several startup businesses. How it can be handled (in the olden times) could be that you simply carry catastrophic insurance for your employees (or yourself in a Single Proprietor setup) and pay your way, either directly for your employees or through an additional salary stipend. My catastrophic coverage kicked in at $10,000 for each incident and I paid about $250 a month for myself (450 for family, which I didn’t have at the time). Not insanely awesome, but it was available. > > Also, the ACA kicks in in January. i think you can wait to stick it to the man for 4 months. 🙂 I’m not sticking it to anybody - my company pays me absurd amounts of money to have a good time and I get to retire fairly soon anyhow. I’ve looked into catastrophic plans. They are good if you have extreme cases - either almost no claims or massive claims. If you have just large claims you can still get into trouble, especially because I’d figure most people forced to buy those plans don’t have a lot of resources to cover large but non-catastrophic bills. [Here](http://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/factsheets/costs/expriach/index.html) is an analysis of the distribution of health care spending. As expected, there is a tail, with the top 5% spending 49% of expenses. Most of that is spent by people on Medicare, which is why we need it, but the percentage goes up by age. Catastrophic coverage makes a lot of sense for someone in their 20s - it would be stupid for me, even if I didn’t have a pre-existing condition. You basically self-insure, That is very dangerous for small risk pools, though companies with large risk pools do it all the time. Lots of startups are small businesses or restaurants, and they probably don’t have the reserves to pay for major illnesses that fall under the catastrophic level. My wife is a free lance writer, which she probably couldn’t do if she had to pay for her own insurance. Ditto for truly independent consultants. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/117 "2013-09-28T05:22:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Having people say in a survey that the sky is blue in MA doesn’t imply it is green in VT. Of course they say costs are increasing. They are. They are everywhere. They are even increasing in places with single payer plans. The reasonable question is whether they are increasing faster than MA than elsewhere. It is a reasonable question, but I don’t have those answers. The problem with getting them is that individual plans vary greatly from employer plans. Some states have fantastic reporting tools about this, some states don’t. Plus, health care costs would probably be a lot more in the rest of the country vs MassCare simply because they have had most of the law enacted for seven years, now. I’d be much more interested in 2014’s numbers for ACA compared to 2008’s numbers for MassCare to compare first years. That’ll tell us better than what we can surmise now how well MassCare’s history will line up with ACA’s future. > [@Voyager](#): > > And probably in the statistical noise. Honestly, most of that survey is highly affected by statistical noise. The sample is too small if 4 people are 1%. It’s bad enough when they use a 1,000 sample size and 10 people are 1%. ☹ > [@Voyager](#): > > At one point my high end group was short of doctors and it too forever to schedule a checkup. But my access to important care was unimpeded. I don’t know if that is the case there. That’s fairly similar to what I hear. The PCP is hard to get into, but if you need surgery/MRI/etc then you can get in within a week (sooner if you get something nasty). I think it relates to the supply of PCPs. > [@Voyager](#): > > My understanding is that this is a very real shortage, especially in rural areas. It is going to need another set of initiatives to fix. Maybe a larger pool of paying patients in rural areas will attract PCPs, but giving up the big bucks surgeons get must be hard. Rural areas will be the hardest to accommodate, unfortunately. In a lot of spaces (Specially when you hit the middle of the country, Kansas, Nebraska, etc) you have something like 1-5 people per square mile. That’s basically one family per farm, more or less. Unless your family just loves playing with a thresher or something, you aren’t going to be able to support a full time doctor. You’d need a mobile doctor’s office or something that’ll role through half the state and high the high points once or twice a year. I’m not sure how feasible that is (or how regular your illnesses and fractured arms will be for you) One proposal that I heard was making specialists practice as a PCP once a week at Hospitals. I’m not sure how much additional capacity that is, but it may help. Unfrotunately, the PCP business is going to get squeezed the worst because it’ll be the largest segment and thus the most competition will be bred there. I would think that PCPs will get put on salary or something at a hospital and be encouraged to work as many patients per day as possible (Time with patients is something that doctors have been [complaining](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496869/) about for 15 years) > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m not sticking it to anybody - my company pays me absurd amounts of money to have a good time and I get to retire fairly soon anyhow. I meant that as a joke. I’m sorry it didn’t come across as such. > [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve looked into catastrophic plans. They are good if you have extreme cases - either almost no claims or massive claims. If you have just large claims you can still get into trouble, especially because I’d figure most people forced to buy those plans don’t have a lot of resources to cover large but non-catastrophic bills. > > [Here](http://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/factsheets/costs/expriach/index.html) is an analysis of the distribution of health care spending. As expected, there is a tail, with the top 5% spending 49% of expenses. Most of that is spent by people on Medicare, which is why we need it, but the percentage goes up by age. Catastrophic coverage makes a lot of sense for someone in their 20s - it would be stupid for me, even if I didn’t have a pre-existing condition. > > You basically self-insure, That is very dangerous for small risk pools, though companies with large risk pools do it all the time. Lots of startups are small businesses or restaurants, and they probably don’t have the reserves to pay for major illnesses that fall under the catastrophic level. My wife is a free lance writer, which she probably couldn’t do if she had to pay for her own insurance. Ditto for truly independent consultants. It depended on what you needed. If you were in the 20s-30s and in good health, it was viable. if you were 60 with hypertension…probably not. But there was a sliding scale of risk that most companies had. If you wanted them to pay everything over a lower or higher threshold, you could, and it would affect the premium. But SMBs were definitely the under-served portion of the pre-ACA days. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > As I said, it remains an important issue, of course we are not discussing education or jobs/economy so me thinks thou dost protest too much. 🙂 Nay, sir. I protest _just enough_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/118 "2013-09-28T09:53:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are they the 13.7% that don’t know how to fish? Yes, although 10 years ago only 7% didn’t know how to fish. Then arrived The Great Stupid, where, as a result of the House Boat Bubble, millions of people suddenly forgot how to fish. They had very helpful people tell them they needed to learn how to fish, and they said to themselves “I was fishing a fucking month ago when some asshole kicked me out of my spot, and you think I need to learn how to fish?” This of course, was misguided, since if they learned how to fish, they could apply to get a new fishing spot. Sure, there are already 50 people applying to every available spot, and the people who make fishing spots available are not increasing availability due to “uncertainty”, but I’m sure getting more people applying helps somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/119 "2013-09-28T11:50:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Yes, although 10 years ago only 7% didn’t know how to fish. Then arrived The Great Stupid, where, as a result of the House Boat Bubble, millions of people suddenly forgot how to fish. > > They had very helpful people tell them they needed to learn how to fish, and they said to themselves “I was fishing a fucking month ago when some asshole kicked me out of my spot, and you think I need to learn how to fish?” > > This of course, was misguided, since if they learned how to fish, they could apply to get a new fishing spot. Sure, there are already 50 people applying to every available spot, and the people who make fishing spots available are not increasing availability due to “uncertainty”, but I’m sure getting more people applying helps somehow. Ten years ago, some of those folks were fishing with a stick and some string. They didn’t know about lures or sinkers. The problem now is not a lack of space on the riverbank: it’s the necessity to learn better ways of fishing. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797/120 "2013-09-28T12:15:11Z")
The fishing analogy is fatally flawed anyway. Even if we had full employment, not all employers offer health insurance, and not all people work for a company anyway (many are self-employed). Before the ACA, many people were not able to get insurance at all – they weren’t allowed to fish? – due to existing conditions. And, to those arguing with **Farin** , who is under the impression that single payer was possible and that most Democratic legislators are radically left of the people who vote for them, well, more power to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-hates-americans-health-insurance-exchanges/669797.md?page=7)