# The GOP is falling apart. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559 "2008-10-12T03:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/41 "2008-10-12T22:52:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Karl Rove’s evil aside, it’s just not true to even suggest that Karl Rove was the mean who learned this or invented any of these tactics. Outright lies and incredibly dirty campaign tricks have been de riguer in Presidential elections since long before the Civil War. [http://www.cracked.com/article\_16680\_5-presidential-elections-even-dumber-than-this-one-somehow.html](http://www.cracked.com/article_16680_5-presidential-elections-even-dumber-than-this-one-somehow.html) ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/42 "2008-10-12T22:59:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Had “I keep my shit real” been a relevant expression at the time, Harrison would’ve been widely acknowledged for the extreme realness with which he kept his shit. William Henry Harrison, straight up gangsta - Lean Back! [http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/campaigns/buren4.jpg](http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/campaigns/buren4.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/43 "2008-10-13T00:17:13Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > If you’re no spring chicken, then you surely remember that LBJ didn’t show up for the Democratic Convention in 1968 - and for undeniably similar reasons. > > And yet the Democratic Party still stands. Imagine that. They also proceeded to loose 7 out of the next 10 presidential elections. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/44 "2008-10-13T00:21:39Z")
I really like [this article.](http://www.campaignsandelections.com/articles/?ArticleID=762DABF7-1422-17E0-F818DC93EB37020B) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/45 "2008-10-13T00:22:20Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > I honestly think that the past 8 (14?) years have tainted a realistic view of the President’s power, which seems to be your focus. The Republicans presented such a monolithic bloc on most issues that it’s become easy to forget that Congress can (and will) diverge from the President’s direction. And Congress should diverge. Congress is supposed to be an equal branch, not a rubber stamp. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/46 "2008-10-13T00:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=Digital Stimulus] I really hope that Republicans will get their party in order soon. Granted, however, I’ll immensely enjoy any and all Republican trouncings in the interim [/QUOTE] You will probably be shocked to hear this, but I actually agree. I’m shedding no tears for the Republicans…they screwed the pooch, big time. My concern though is that it seems all the anti-capitalists are coming out of the wood work atm, and that this seems the be the fervor that is driving the Dems to a naked agenda driven grab to swing us hugely in the other direction. I know you blasted Sam in another thread because of his concern and use of the term ‘socialism’ but take a step back and try and see it from the other sides perspective. While it’s true the Republicans have screwed the pooch, I’m not seeing how the Dems have exactly covered themselves in glory on this issue either…and yet they are seemingly seeing this as a golden moment to push through their anti-business/anti-market agenda. Just take a look at the threads being generated here on the board lately…and realize that 'dopers are by and large fairly rational. What I’m seeing on the REAL leftwing boards and blogs (granted, only snippets) are REALLY out there…and it SEEMS that this is the faction that is driving the Dems atm. It’s why folks like Sam (and myself) are a bit worried about things atm. I don’t see any way the Pubs aren’t going to take a big beating, both in the Presidential election AND in the next cycle of elections in the house and senate. That, to me, is a given. And like I said, I think the Pubs DESERVE said beating…I’m just not convinced that the Dems DESERVE to capitalize on all this, since I think they are as responsible for the problems as the Pubs were. Pox on both your houses and all that. And I’m concerned on what the Dems will DO once they have the presidency AND a clear majority in the house and senate…especially considering the rhetoric I’m hearing these days. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/47 "2008-10-13T01:23:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You will probably be shocked to hear this, but I actually agree… And I’m concerned on what the Dems will DO once they have the presidency AND a clear majority in the house and senate…especially considering the rhetoric I’m hearing these days. I’m not shocked at all; it just seems to me to be an accurate and honest assessment of the situation. One on which we agree, as I’m also very concerned about a disproportionate split of power. The fact that it’ll be in Democrat hands rather than Republican is only a minor salve for me. Although the fact that it’ll no longer be led by Bush or his acolytes is a major relief and point of satisfaction. I’m honestly thankful that you and others ( **Sam Stone** being just one) stick around and endure the crap that often gets thrown your way. And _you_ may be shocked to hear it, but I think you guys make much more of an impact than is evident in the responses you get. You certainly have such an impact on me, even though I may not put it in writing very often. So, yeah…I just blasted **Sam** in that other thread, but for exactly the reason I gave. To wit: a nice, lengthy, rational post…with a parting shot that poisoned it. It struck me that it was compulsive (needlessly, at that), and that’s worthy of a good trashing when it crops up, no matter who it’s coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/48 "2008-10-13T01:39:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You will probably be shocked to hear this, but I actually agree. I’m shedding no tears for the Republicans…they screwed the pooch, big time. My concern though is that it seems all the anti-capitalists are coming out of the wood work atm, and that this seems the be the fervor that is driving the Dems to a naked agenda driven grab to swing us hugely in the other direction. I know you blasted Sam in another thread because of his concern and use of the term ‘socialism’ but take a step back and try and see it from the other sides perspective. While it’s true the Republicans have screwed the pooch, I’m not seeing how the Dems have exactly covered themselves in glory on this issue either…and yet they are seemingly seeing this as a golden moment to push through their anti-business/anti-market agenda. > > Just take a look at the threads being generated here on the board lately…and realize that 'dopers are by and large fairly rational. What I’m seeing on the REAL leftwing boards and blogs (granted, only snippets) are REALLY out there…and it SEEMS that this is the faction that is driving the Dems atm. > > It’s why folks like Sam (and myself) are a bit worried about things atm. I don’t see any way the Pubs aren’t going to take a big beating, both in the Presidential election AND in the next cycle of elections in the house and senate. That, to me, is a given. And like I said, I think the Pubs DESERVE said beating…I’m just not convinced that the Dems DESERVE to capitalize on all this, since I think they are as responsible for the problems as the Pubs were. Pox on both your houses and all that. And I’m concerned on what the Dems will DO once they have the presidency AND a clear majority in the house and senate…especially considering the rhetoric I’m hearing these days. > > -XT The idea that the Democrats are anti-business and anti-market is as insane as the assertion that Obama is a Muslim, and it is thrown around for exactly the same reason - to put irrational fear into ignorant people. **Sam** has spent the last eight years telling us that about how great Bush economics are and will be. If you were ignorant of the fact that this “expansion” has been the [slowest and shallowest post WWII expansion](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/07/bush-boom-bah-2/), you should at least recognize that the glowing predictions of the future of Bush’s economy have met with the cold light of reality. That is, at some point, you have to stop believing in things that are empirically wrong. Likewise, I grow frustrated repeating this without it ever sinking in, but Democratic administrations are better for the economy. The markets in particular perform better under Democrats than Republicans. Democrats are not socialists, nor are they anti-capitalists. It’s extremely foolish to suggest that they are. (By the way, I noticed, while I was out of the country, that you called his suspension of his campaign brilliant. Nice call! I suspect your other predictions about the outcome of the election will be as accurate.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/49 "2008-10-13T02:01:36Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] The idea that the Democrats are anti-business and anti-market is as insane as the assertion that Obama is a Muslim, and it is thrown around for exactly the same reason - to put irrational fear into ignorant people. [/QUOTE] I think that there is a FACTION of the Dems who are anti-business and anti-market…and it seem to me as if this faction is gaining strength. You can believe whatever you like (probably being a member of said faction), but that’s how I see it. [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] (By the way, I noticed, while I was out of the country, that you called his suspension of his campaign brilliant. Nice call! I suspect your other predictions about the outcome of the election will be as accurate.) [/QUOTE] Interesting…so you DON’T think Obama will win then? Well, different stroke for different folks and all that… I still think it was a good political move on his part. Whether it WORKED is of course a different matter. Seems it didn’t. Not ever gambit that Obama has tried has worked either. You win some, you lose some I guess. Personally I think McCain has deeper issues, and that even a politically brilliant move on his part would be too little too late. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/50 "2008-10-13T02:06:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I still think it was a good political move on his part. Whether it WORKED is of course a different matter. Seems it didn’t. If it didn’t work, can it be called a good political move? To me, and this may be idiosyncratic on my part, for something to be a good “political” move, it has to work. That doesn’t mean it can’t still be a good ethical move, or a moral move, or a move that shows political courage or whathaveyou. But “political” means something different to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/51 "2008-10-13T02:08:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think that there is a FACTION of the Dems who are anti-business and anti-market…and it seem to me as if this faction is gaining strength. You can believe whatever you like (probably being a member of said faction), but that’s how I see it. Based on what, exactly? > [@](#): > > I still think it was a good political move on his part. Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/52 "2008-10-13T02:48:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …My concern though is that it seems all the anti-capitalists are coming out of the wood work atm, and that this seems the be the fervor that is driving the Dems to a naked agenda driven grab to swing us hugely in the other direction. … A shrill warning klaxon, to be sure. All of us, from me and my ilk on the conservative wing of the extreme left all the way to the most placidly milktoast Clintonista centrist, we must be vigilant! And so, friend **XT** , we are pressed to ask: who are these “anti-capitalists”? Have you names? And how might we recognize their poisonous agenda, what dastardly schemes should we expect to be offered? We are on the brink of the most ghastly financial meltdown in generations, we might be about to live a sequel, _Grapes of Wrath II:The Empire Strikes Out_ What anti-capitalist schemes have brought us to this sorry state? Seems to me that the authors of this clusterfuck were _devout_ capitalists, acolytes of the Free Market, worshipers of the Dollar Almighty. But we should be wary of the criticism of those who had nothing whatever to do with this, we should be skeptical, because the orthodox capitalists have done such a bang-up job. We should put our trust in those guys whose dicks still stink of pooch. I beg to differ. Hooo boy, do I ever _differ_! ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/53 "2008-10-13T03:15:49Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Many speculated that the Republican Party was dead when Nixon went down in flames in 1974. Gerald Ford served out his term and Carter took over. By 1980 Reagan was in office and the GOP dominated the Executive Office for the next twelve years. It would take a little research to see how Congress faired during that same period. > > Don’t count the Pubbies out. I do think that the fisically conservative element is going to become more vocal. There is some truth to this, but the current Republican party is really composed of three parts: (1) The fiscal conservatives mentioned above, (2) Foreign-policy hawks, and (3) The religious right/social conservatives, a division that matches up quite nicely with the three Republican primary contenders (Romney, McCain, Huckabee). The Rove stroke of genius was to recognize and control this coalition, and even here this was a constant battle for Bush (remember the politics of stem-cell research?) until 9/11 “changed everything”. With Bush on the wane there is no one to hold this uneasy alliance together: No one wants to hear from the fiscal conservatives with the economy tanking, the Iraq war has pretty much crushed the credibility of right-wing foreign policy groups like the Project for the New American Century, and although Sarah Palin can wield power among the social conservatives it’s hard to see how the other groups could take her seriously as a party leader. For now, I think the right is going to have to go along to get along, waiting for an opportunity in case Obama and the Dems fumble the ball in a big way. But Obama’s presidency has the potential to be a game-changer with respect to party ideaology (e.g. supporters of trickle-down economics look as anachronistic on the right as Dixiecrats tday on the left), and much of that is under Obama’s control. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/54 "2008-10-13T11:42:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A shrill warning klaxon, to be sure. All of us, from me and my ilk on the conservative wing of the extreme left all the way to the most placidly milktoast Clintonista centrist, we must be vigilant! > > And so, friend **XT** , we are pressed to ask: who are these “anti-capitalists”? Have you names? And how might we recognize their poisonous agenda, what dastardly schemes should we expect to be offered? > > We are on the brink of the most ghastly financial meltdown in generations, we might be about to live a sequel, _Grapes of Wrath II:The Empire Strikes Out_ > > What anti-capitalist schemes have brought us to this sorry state? Seems to me that the authors of this clusterfuck were _devout_ capitalists, acolytes of the Free Market, worshipers of the Dollar Almighty. But we should be wary of the criticism of those who had nothing whatever to do with this, we should be skeptical, because the orthodox capitalists have done such a bang-up job. We should put our trust in those guys whose dicks still stink of pooch. > > I beg to differ. Hooo boy, do I ever _differ_! [irrelevant aside] **Luci** –you crack me up[/IA] Is this more of the Republican famed black and white thinking? If you’re a Dem, somehow you don’t believe in profit or something? I’ve never understood this POV. Where does it come from? I’m going out on a crazy limb here and state that THIS Dem is against unfettered capitalism. Regs are not evil. Regulation and laws gave (and gives) us safe medicine and food and abolished child labor (in this country, anyway). Can there be too much? Absolutely. But we’ve just seen what too little can do… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/55 "2008-10-13T16:16:38Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > This is the thing that worries me about the current political landscape, in which it’s looking like there might be a Democrat landslide (defined as controlling the Presidency and both chambers of Congress, with a filibuster-proof 60 Senate seats). Given the two-party system we have, IMO, it’s _really_ bad for one of those parties to be in a position of such strength. That way lies much bad legislation, and I really don’t want a Democratic Party version of the last eight years. As delighted as I am that Republicans are getting their just rewards, I really hope they’ll get their party back in order, and sooner rather than later. > > Even better, IMO, would be a massive shift to a non-nutter Libertarian party. Let the Republican brand die, with something better growing in its place. > > Yeah, as if that’ll happen. [See you and raise you.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269169) ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/56 "2008-10-14T22:15:43Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > William F. Buckley’s son Christopher Buckley, a conservative columnist for the National Review of all things, is voting for Obama. > > [http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-10/the-conservative-case-for-obama](http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-10/the-conservative-case-for-obama) Aaaaand they just fired him. [www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-14/sorry-dad-i-was-fired](http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-14/sorry-dad-i-was-fired) > [@](#): > > So, I have been effectively fatwahed (is that how you spell it?) by the conservative movement, and the magazine that my father founded must now distance itself from me. But then, conservatives have always had a bit of trouble with the concept of diversity. The GOP likes to say it’s a big-tent. Looks more like a yurt to me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/57 "2008-10-14T23:05:48Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Aaaaand they just fired him. I hope he starts up a new magazine for non-freaky conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/58 "2008-10-15T04:06:06Z")
How bad is it for the GOP? [This bad.](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/14/republicans-consider-loan-to-help-senate-incumbents/) > [@](#): > > The news comes a week after the RNC announced it had raised $66 million in September, its best fundraising month ever. But in an effort to keep pace with Barack Obama’s cash advantage over John McCain, those funds are going entirely toward the presidential race. > > Meanwhile the National Republican Senatorial Committee has been largely outspent by its Democratic counterpart this cycle and the possibility of Democrats getting to the magic number of 60 seats in the Senate has become likely in the wake of the economic crisis. > > It’s unclear what the size of the loan might be, but Politico reported Monday the amount could be as high as $5 million. The RNC is (I think futilely) throwing all the funds it’s got into McCain’s last stand. Seeing the rising tide of Democrats in the Senate they are also borrowing against their future. Odds are they will start the next cycle out of the White House, and vastly outgunned in both Houses of Congress (perhaps filibuster-proofed even). Hard to raise money under those circumstances and harder yet to dig out of debt. And hard to win back ground without funds. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559/59 "2008-10-15T04:21:17Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I’ve followed politics for over 20 years. I’ve heard “The GOP is falling apart. The Dems are falling apart. The GOP is falling apart. The Dems are falling apart.” all that time. Assuming Obama gets elected, in 8-12 years, the Republicans might just again look like the glowing hope & people will once more be saying “The Dems are falling apart”. > > One party gets in power, gets cushy & stagnant, and needs to be shaken up & regroup. That’s all that’s happening. Agreed. I recall Hunter S. Thompson in the 1980s likening the Democrats to the old Whig Party and saying they’d just about had it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gop-is-falling-apart/467559.md?page=2)