# The Gospel according to the Bible. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129 "2000-04-22T23:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/101 "2000-05-01T20:13:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not saying that. I’m saying that men should, when asking where they come from, realize that while conventional wisdom says one thing, faith offers truth that confounds convention. But how do you evaulate whether it is true or not if you remove your wisdom? I can have faith that the Invisible Pink Unicorn created us all; would you say that my faith offers truth that confounds convention? And for quite a while, conventional wisdom said that there was a God, Jesus; “everybody” knew that. Why should we only ignore conventional wisdom when it disagrees with your particular faith? > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t approve of either of your examples because I see no evidence of either being true. I wish they would use a little more wisdom in evaluating their beliefs. I see no reason to believe in crystals or invisible dragons, though. I’ve seen no evidence. There is evidence, it simply does not measure up to the standards you use to determine what is true, so you do not believe. There’s tons of anecdotal evidence of crystal healing, plenty of historical reports of dragons, impressive-sounding papers on how crystals work or dragons could fly (and why we never found any dragon bones)…_the same sort of evidence offered to convince me to believe in Jesus_. Not to mention all the other religions–Judaism, Hinduism, Pagan, Dionysian, that seem to have just as much evidence as yours. The evidence offered for religions does not measure up to the standards I use to determine what is true, so _I_ do not believe. > [@](#): > > I know in my heart that those who truly seek God, even in a foreign country, will find Him. God will find a way. Gee, I guess those Japanese must really not be seeking God as much as Americans do, since not many of them are Christians. You agreed before that upbringing and culture make a big difference as to which religion is chosen. The fact that if the Japanese had been born in America they probably would be Christian just means that if you have the misfortune to be born in the wrong place, you’re probably going to Hell, unlike those lucky Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/102 "2000-05-02T04:42:32Z")
Two, I say TWO, fundies who’ve now admitted that they don’t read all of God’s words. So, tell me again, why we should listen to a thing you have to say about His words when you, yourself, and by your own admission, deign to disregard said Word? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/103 "2000-05-02T04:47:16Z")
Where did I misquote? Where was I rude? Whom did you call a swine? And what exactly does the Bible say about calling someone else a bad name? Oh, I forgot. You haven’t read the whole thing. Maybe that was the part you skipped. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/104 "2000-05-02T05:24:11Z")
Twin said: > [@](#): > > It seems like I read somewhere that you said you were not a Christian. Therefore, it’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to know what you’re talking about when it comes to the Bible. BTW, I know it’s a big word and hard to spell, but it’s fundamentalist. Nope; never said that. On this board I mentioned that I’m a Mormon. I know it’s a big phrase and hard to spell, but it’s really Latter Day Saint. Your assertion that only a Christian can have knowledge of the Bible kind of negates the efficacy of preaching conversion, doesn’t it? Luckily, that’s an absurd assertion on your part. P.s. Latter Day Saints are Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/105 "2000-05-02T08:01:39Z")
Never bring faith to a contest of intellect. It is not the appropriate tool. Never make argument for the logical quality of your beliefs, unless you are submitting your beliefs to the judgment of logic. Logic is a sharp tool, and cuts away any matter that does not fall within its compass. When used with skill, and without prejudice, it can guide the cautious and well-disciplined mind around many types of falsehood, and error. Faith will not do this. Never seek beyond the realm of deterministic reality with the tools of logic, for they must, by their own definition, fail to apply. They can reject all other matters as illogical, and that judgment cannot be countered, within the axioms of logic. What is not provable is beyond the perception of anyone who will deny what cannot be proven. That the world might exceed our understanding is not testable by our understanding. I shall not drag my faith through the gutter of debate, nor accept that argument makes it invalid. It is not logical. It is not provable, nor will I attempt to prove it to you. You might find it, yourself, if that is what you wish, and it that cause I will willingly lend you what minor aid is mine to make your path easier. You might, as well, pursue the denial of God, or faith, or love, or any thing outside of physical evidence. In that task I will oppose you, should your desire be to lessen the love, or faith, of others. If it is simply your desire to limit your own life to that which does not cross any boundary of logic, or science, as you perceive them, I shall not oppose you, though it is my belief that you harm yourself thereby. To claim that ones faith is held by reason is to deny ones own faith, and cast ones fate upon the slender support of ones own reason. I prefer to live within the strength of God’s love for all man, and the great power of that Love, as made real by His son, Jesus. I do not offer you proof. He offers you eternal salvation. I offer you encouragement. We offer you love. His is the greater. I know people who do not read the bible, and have faith beyond my own understanding. I know souls so filled with the Spirit of God, that they shine their warmth into my soul, and yet those souls lie together with minds unable to understand one word of the bible. It is not necessary to be intelligent, literate, or even able to hear or see to know God, to know Jesus, and to be given faith beyond the reach of genius. You mind is not your soul. You should be very glad that is so. I rejoice that I am not limited by my feeble perceptions. **Tris** ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/106 "2000-05-02T14:14:50Z")
Gaudere: I’m not sure what else I can offer you in the way of answers as to why God chose to set up the way of salvation like He did. I have faith in Him, and this is something that I now realize cannot be explained sufficiently in the confines of a logical debate. Monty: > [@](#): > > There we have it, folks! > > Two, I say TWO, fundies who’ve now admitted that they don’t read all of God’s words. > > So, tell me again, why we should listen to a thing you have to say about His words when you, yourself, and by your own admission, deign to disregard said Word? This question is ridiculous, but I knew you would ask it. Again. I have read the entire New Testament. I have read the majority of the Old Testament. More importantly, I have studied them. Reading an entire book (even several times) doesn’t do you a lot of good if you don’t understand what you are reading. Just because I have not read the entire Bible (though I have read the vast majority of it, I haven’t got to all of it yet, such as I and II Chronicles, etc.) doesn’t disqualify me from making informed opinions about it or trying to convince others about it. That assertion is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Where did I misquote? You said that I said that faith requires faith. I never said this. > [@](#): > > Where was I rude? Well, let’s see… You said I had a “hard on” with pressing my views on people. Not only is that rude, it’s vulgar. You referred to me as a “fundie”, which I consider to be a derogatory use of the word fundamentalist. > [@](#): > > Whom did you call a swine? And what exactly does the Bible say about calling someone else a bad name? You. I was referring to Matthew 7:6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” As I mentioned earlier, I posted this while I was angry, and I apologize. It was uncalled for. > [@](#): > > Oh, I forgot. You haven’t read the whole thing. Maybe that was the part you skipped. I haven’t skipped anything. I just haven’t reached them in my studies yet. I guess that invalidates everything I said, according to you. \*\* Twin said: quote: It seems like I read somewhere that you said you were not a Christian. Therefore, it’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to know what you’re talking about when it comes to the Bible. BTW, I know it’s a big word and hard to spell, but it’s fundamentalist.\*\* > [@](#): > > Nope; never said that. On this board I mentioned that I’m a Mormon. I know it’s a big phrase and hard to spell, but it’s really Latter Day Saint. I’m sorry that I asserted that, then. And I will call you a Latter Day Saint if you wish. I would never disrespect you by calling you anything else, even if I disagree with your choice of religion. > [@](#): > > Your assertion that only a Christian can have knowledge of the Bible kind of negates the efficacy of preaching conversion, doesn’t it? Luckily, that’s an absurd assertion on your part. I’m just stating what the Bible says. I’m not saying ONLY a Christian can have knowledge of the Bible. But the truth of the Bible is spiritually discerned. The Spirit of God gives Christians insights into the Bible and it’s truth. You have said that the Bible is a book of fables. Do you say all of the Bible is a book of fables, even the parts mentioning Jesus? If so, then how can you call yourself a Christian? You can’t just pick and choose what parts you want to believe are true and call the others fables. Conversion does not require that the converted believes every point of doctrine. They just need to realize and accept the four steps I mention below. > [@](#): > > P.S. Latter Day Saints are Christians. As long as you: 1. Realize that you are a sinner. 2. Realize that there is nothing you can do to pay for your sins. 3. Realize that your sins have already been paid for by Jesus, the perfect, virgin-born son of God. 4. Accept the gift of salvation by asking Jesus Christ to become your personal savior. Then I have no problem with you saying you are a Christian. Triskadecamus: Thank you for giving me a proper perspective on trying to explain my faith in a logical manner. I see now that it is a fruitless task to try to do so. As such, I will refrain from doing so in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/107 "2000-05-02T15:27:49Z")
Twin: I did not quote you, as you now assert, when I said that you asserted Faith requires Faith. I said that you asserted that. That’s essentially your assertion, now isn’t it? You’re apparently saying that only Christians (those with _faith_ in Christ) can truly understand “God’s wisdom” (_faith_) and that anything which appears to contradict your _faith_ must be examined _in faith_ to be truly understood, _in faith_. Also, evidently, you really didn’t understand all that much of the New Testament seeing as you’re calling me “a pig.” Or I guess “pig” as a term applied to a human being, in your estimation, doesn’t qualify under this verse: > [@](#): > > _New Testament Matthew, Chapter 5, verse 22_ > But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Now the footnote in my Bible for “Raca” says: > [@](#): > > A word suggesting contempt, derision, in both Aramaic and Greek.\* I trust you can readily see that the “without cause” referred just to anger, and not to your use of the slur “pig.” And “pig” when used to describe a human as you use it, most certainly is a term of contempt and derision. I don’t mind being called Mormon, lot of folks do that; even Mormons use the term. I didn’t say that I didn’t like being called that. What I did do, however, was to show that the terms can be used interchangeably just like “Fundie” for “Fundamentalist.” Both of the latter terms have been used on this board in a merely descriptive manner; a “shorthand,” if you will. No rancor involved in my use of it. My use of the expression “hard-on” isn’t by any means vulgar on this particular board. Check a few of the threads in the BBQ Pit and even some other threads in Great Debates to see some real vulgarity. I used the expression in a merely metaphorical manner which I was sure that the Teeming Millions could understand in its intended sense. Again, I did not use the term “Fundie” as a slur, and I obviously (at least to me) do not intend it to be such. For that matter, the term “Christian” apparently was originally a slur, finally adopted by those who worshipped Christ and thus negating the slur. “Mormon” also had a similar evolution as a word. Now “pig” used to describe a human being certainly doesn’t have such a connotation. Also, by this statement of yours above: > [@](#): > > Then I have no problem with you saying you are a Christian. You have placed yourself in the position of judging someone; that is, you are presuming to sit in Jesus’ place. Please explain “pride” to me; using your vast biblical knowledge, of course. I’d be delighted to see, though, your proof that the world-wide Deluge happened, seeing as it’s been proven to not have happened. Or is this one of those proofs that you discount because it contradicts your _faith_? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/108 "2000-05-02T17:10:16Z")
Monty, this is getting silly. “Fundie” is indeed used in a derisive manner. You know that. Whether you meant it that way or not is irrelevant to his being offended by it. Having a “hard on” is indeed vulgar. You know that. Just because there are more vulgar things posted in other threads does NOT make it pleasant. And you know full well that many people do not consider Saints to be Christians. Is it judgemental? You betcha. Do many, if not most, LDS think I’m unsaved and lost in the outer dark for not being Mormon? You betcha. Is _that_ judgemental? You betcha. Mr. Kettle? Meet Mr. Pot. And finally, I’m guessing that you’ve read and studied the Bible, the BoM, D&C and Pearl, right? If you were to encounter a fellow Saint who had not read them completely (and hooboy are there a few), would that person be forbidden to profess his faith in LDS teachings? Puh-leeze. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/109 "2000-05-02T17:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty, this is getting silly. Sure is. > [@](#): > > “Fundie” is indeed used in a derisive manner. You know that. Whether you meant it that way or not is irrelevant to his being offended by it. Nope, it’s a shorthand. Actually, to be honest, I think a lot of people even use the term “Fundamentalist” in a derogatory manner. Tell you what, just to make sure it doesn’t happen again; please be so kind as to list every single thing you consider vulgar so I don’t hurt your precious sensibilities. > [@](#): > > Having a “hard on” is indeed vulgar. You know that. Just because there are more vulgar things posted in other threads does NOT make it pleasant. Thanks for yet another lesson in mind-reading. Tell you what, just to make sure it doesn’t happen again; please be so kind as to list every single thing you consider vulgar so I don’t hurt your precious mind-reading sensibilities. > [@](#): > > And you know full well that many people do not consider Saints to be Christians. Yep. I know that and I disagree with them. > [@](#): > > Is it judgemental? You betcha. Then isn’t it about time some fundamentalist admitted that? > [@](#): > > Do many, if not most, LDS think I’m unsaved and lost in the outer dark for not being Mormon? You betcha. Those who profess that are not professing what the LDS church leadership teaches, and from my experience most LDS do not consider fellow Christians “unsaved.” There is a difference in that theology between “saved” and “exalted.” Please refer to my posting earlier regarding Twin talking about stuff he doesn’t know about. > [@](#): > > Is _that_ judgemental? You betcha. Yep, and I never said the fundamentalists were not saved, now did I? > [@](#): > > Mr. Kettle? Meet Mr. Pot. Not too keen on your reading and comprehension skills of late, hey? > [@](#): > > And finally, I’m guessing that you’ve read and studied the Bible, the BoM, D&C and Pearl, right? Not too much of a guess seeing as I’ve stated more than a few times on this board that I’ve read and studied them and that I’ve also read and studied the Koran. > [@](#): > > If you were to encounter a fellow Saint who had not read them completely (and hooboy are there a few), would that person be forbidden to profess his faith in LDS teachings? Puh-leeze. I’ve never said that. Refer, please, to my comment about your R&C skills. What I did was ask the dude who was making incorrect assertions about them and making my observations on said assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/110 "2000-05-02T20:10:49Z")
Monty: This is my last post in this thread. We have a difference of theological belief that cannot be settled over a message board. I already apologized for referring to you as a pig. I already said it was uncalled for. You chose not to accept that apology and continue to bring it up. There is nothing more I can do. I am offended by the term “fundie”. It shows a lack of tolerance and respect. (Insert fundamentalist complaining about lack of tolerance joke here.) For example, I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle, but you will NEVER see me refer to a homosexual in a derogatory manner. You defend your use of hard-on saying it’s not offensive, because there are worse things on this board. I guess I’ll just have to grow a thicker skin around here, but I am still offended by it. I will admit that I do have a problem with being very judgmental of people. There is really no way I can know if someone is a Christian or not. Only God knows. All I know is that I am a Christian. You keep implying that, since I have not read the entire Bible, I am not qualified to engage in a debate. I’m not the only one who sees this as absurd. I’ll let you know when I am finished reading the Bible. I don’t see how that will make my opinions any more or less valid, though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/111 "2000-05-02T20:37:32Z")
You did not apologize to me, Twin. You apologized to Slythe for his taking that insult to mean you were applying it to him. You certainly made it clear that you intend, without apology, for it to apply to me. Now, if you’re really apologizing now, fine. But don’t lie to me and expect me to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/112 "2000-05-02T20:41:18Z")
Triskadecamus - That is lyrical, poetic and beautiful. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/113 "2000-05-02T22:10:08Z")
And to think that I was trying to witness! My Op got lost somewheres. Oh well… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/114 "2000-05-02T22:18:49Z")
Sure, whatever, **Monty**. You’re a nice guy. You’re polite. You win. Whatever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129/115 "2000-05-04T13:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > And to think that I was trying to witness! My Op got lost somewheres. Oh well… > \*\* Perhaps you will recall this exchange, when next you seek to bring others to the light of the Love of God. What happened here was a response to your “witnessing” and you must, if you wish to serve the Lord accept the result as the true measure of your act. Did you bring anyone closer to the Lord? It might hurt your pride to be objective, but your pride has no value to your soul. Be aware of the real effect of your words, before you witness in His name again. **Tris** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gospel-according-to-the-bible/18129.md?page=5)