# The Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922 "2008-09-17T01:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/241 "2008-09-30T01:23:44Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > What is the definition of “sect” as it applies here? The bare minimum – any kind of organized subreligion. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Kabalist synagogues, Kabalists in general do not regard other Orthodox Jews as heretics, and Orthodox Jews in general do not regard Kabalists as heretics. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/242 "2008-09-30T02:17:05Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > All the characters, places, and events in the legend symbolically refer to organs, systems and processes of the human anatomy in the mastership of ‘The Great Work’ in the attainment of the ‘Sacred Marriage’. No they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/243 "2008-09-30T02:29:45Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > The bare minimum – any kind of organized subreligion. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Kabalist synagogues, Kabalists in general do not regard other Orthodox Jews as heretics, and Orthodox Jews in general do not regard Kabalists as heretics. Well, for starters there is this organization in the Bay area: > **[Web Page Under Construction](http://www.aynsof.org/index.html)** > > Network Solutions - Original domain name registration and reservation services with variety of internet-related business offerings. Quick, dependable and reliable. And then there is this article that talks about Kabbalists: [http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story\_id/8156/edition\_id/155/format/html/displaystory.html](http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/8156/edition_id/155/format/html/displaystory.html) A quote I found quite relevant is: > [@](#): > > Davis estimates that up to a third of American Buddhists are Jews who have rejected the formality of synagogue life. The earthy teachings and calming meditations of Zen touch them in a way that cerebral Judaism never did. > > Kabbalah shares some Zen philosophies, such as the idea that the natural world, human spirit and supernatural forces are interconnected. > > But Jewish mysticism departs from its Eastern counterpart by requiring followers to build a “vessel,” or personal spiritual foundation, in which to hold the Divine. Without a good vessel, kabbalists say, spiritual pursuit is for naught because there is nothing to contain the teachings. Traditionally, halachic observance is the way to build one’s vessel. This seems to be talking about building a vessel, but goes on to explain that is spiritual in nature, it mentions nothing anatomical anywhere in this article nor anywhere else in any other article I have found. Now from the OP: [QUOTE=maatorc] What is most odd to me about it all is that in \*\*totally non-secret and often quite readily available literature \*\*on the ‘mystical’ tradition it is fairly common knowledge that the almost thousands of ‘names’ and ‘descriptions’ and ‘events’ and ‘places’ and ‘treasure’ etc, of the grail ALL stand for ONE-ONLY thing: **The grail legend transmits a myth of occult anatomy in which the grail is an organ in the human head associated with what the tradition calls the "Sacred Marriage’.** [/QUOTE] Bolding and underlining mine. The OP is suggesting that a connection to an anatomical myth is readily available and fairly common knowledge. I’m not finding it. Either it is readily available only where the OP is or the OP came up with it on his own. Even if this myth exists, as the OP claims (usually only claiming it’s existance and neither support or denial of it) I’m not seeing it in the Grail legend, in the practice of Hermits, in either the classical or the new Hollywood Kabbalists, in the whole Egyptian thing or anywhere else. And as for Hermeticism, I was at first confused with Christian Eremitics and the hermits who spent their lives in meditation. Link: > **[Hermit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermit)** > > A hermit, also known as an eremite (adjectival form: hermitic or eremitic) or solitary, is a person who lives in seclusion. Eremitism plays a role in a variety of religions. > In Christianity, the term was originally applied to a Christian who lives the eremitic life out of a religious conviction, namely the Desert Theology of the Old Testament (i.e., the 40 years wandering in the desert that was meant to bring about a change of heart). > In the Christian tradition the eremitic life is an early for... Now that I have read a little more on Hermeticism as an early system that developed around the time of the Gnostics, the Christians and the Rosicrucians I can see how it is not a sect, but it is still unclear what the relationship to some anatomical secret is. Link to Hermeticism: > **[Hermeticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism)** > > Hermeticism, or Hermetism, is a philosophical and religious tradition rooted in the teachings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, a syncretic figure combining elements of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth.\[a\] This system encompasses a wide range of esoteric knowledge, including aspects of alchemy, astrology and theurgy, significantly influencing various mystical and occult traditions throughout history. The writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, often referred to as the Hermet... So we have been explained the myth (and it’s existance at length) and been explained the sacred marriage and how it all relates to occult anatomy. My question to the OP is, where to seek this commonly available information of which you speak to read it for myself? Cite? Link? Something? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/244 "2008-09-30T03:59:35Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Hmph. If that’s the case, I’m done with you. I have no interest in playing guessing games, which belong in a different forum anyway. I assure you you’ll turn more people off than on to your weird ideas this way. It comes across as snide and condescending. If that makes me “unworthy” to join your club of crackpots, it’s your loss. I’ll hang out with folks who don’t insult me. You have misread me. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/245 "2008-09-30T04:09:07Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > You have misread me. How so? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/246 "2008-09-30T05:32:30Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No they don’t. What, then, do they mean? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/247 "2008-09-30T05:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > ( Allan Smithee-maatorc insert)Is it because, as I suspect, you believe that we must discover the truth for ourselves by cobbling together your obscure and terse hints rather than having it spoon fed to us by you? > [@](#): > > (maatorc)You are on the right track. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Alan Smithee View Post > Hmph. If that’s the case, I’m done with you. I have no interest in playing guessing games, which belong in a different forum anyway. I assure you you’ll turn more people off than on to your weird ideas this way. It comes across as snide and condescending. If that makes me “unworthy” to join your club of crackpots, it’s your loss. I’ll hang out with folks who don’t insult me. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by maatorc View Post > You have misread me. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > How so? When you said: “Is it because, as I suspect, you believe that we must discover the truth for ourselves by cobbling together your obscure and terse hints rather than having it spoon fed to us by you?”, I appear to have erroneously read your question as indicating you had recognised and accepted a rule of the myth that it is never forced on to anyone but is voluntarily sought after as in _undertaking the QUEST for the Grail_, which in the myth entails undertaking what is called _A Great Effort_. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/248 "2008-09-30T06:32:01Z")
Man, just lurking in this thread has been a great effort ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/249 "2008-09-30T06:53:43Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Man, just lurking in this thread has been a great effort Great Work! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/250 "2008-09-30T11:34:58Z")
**maatorc** , do you believe that this “myth”, as you’ve described it, is true? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/251 "2008-09-30T13:04:52Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > What, then, do they mean? I didn’t make the claim, you did. You haven’t made your case so I disagreed with your interpretation. Would you care to back up your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/252 "2008-09-30T14:31:56Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > When you said: “Is it because, as I suspect, you believe that we must discover the truth for ourselves by cobbling together your obscure and terse hints rather than having it spoon fed to us by you?”, I appear to have erroneously read your question as indicating you had recognised and accepted a rule of the myth that it is never forced on to anyone but is voluntarily sought after as in _undertaking the QUEST for the Grail_, which in the myth entails undertaking what is called _A Great Effort_. I **do** understand the rule, and I think it’s bullshit when you use it to turn a conversation into some kind of game. ALL knowledge-seeking can be compared to a quest because understanding the complexities of reality is difficult and challenging and sometimes requires giving up cherished beliefs and preconceived notions. Nearly everyone on this board would agree with that,and most of us are already committed to taking regular, hard looks at what we believe and testing those beliefs to see if they hold up - it’s more or less the mission of the board. (Of course, if you want to participate, _you_ have to be willing also to question your beliefs and test them against the harsh light of evidence.) What your “rule” doesn’t mean (or _shouldn’t_ at any rate) is that you put stumbling blocks and obstacles before those trying to learn and discuss new ideas. _That_ is what trivializes your myth - you come across as a bad stage magician using elaborate props to distract the audience from his lousy sleight-of-hand. If what you have to say is worthy of any great effort, it doesn’t need your artificail attempts to make the effort greater. In other words, just say what you gotta say, man! You might not convince anyone, and you might open yourself up to ridicule, but those are the risks you take when you try to share ideas. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/253 "2008-09-30T15:15:36Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > What, then, do they mean? I’m not speaking for **Telemark** , but I’m pretty sure catapaulting the cow represented letting go of inner turmoil and the scent of elderberries represented the desire to reunite with the Sacred Hamster. It goes without saying that there are only _three_ ways of overcoming the monster of Caerbannog, not _five_. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/254 "2008-09-30T15:26:22Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > It goes without saying that there are only _three_ ways of overcoming the monster of Caerbannog, not _five_. And definately not two. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/255 "2008-09-30T15:52:10Z")
> [@nd\_n8](#): > > And definately not two. Excepting that thou then proceed to three. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/256 "2008-09-30T16:04:10Z")
**Alan Smithee** said: [quote] But (most) people **don’t** act on the beliefs of this supposed myth. [quote] I never claimed they did. Perhaps I was misreading you, but I was responding to the idea that if the myth were false then it was meaningless. If people started a war over the nature of “The Force”, then it wouldn’t matter that “the Force” is a construct from a movie. The reality of the war would trump the fictional nature of the source of the idea. **maatorc** said: > [@](#): > > As to: “IS THE MYTH TRUE OR NOT”?, I am speaking _about_ the existence of the myth and do not presume to speak _for_ its preservers and protectors. YOu are separating the concept that there are people who hold this belief from the concept that the belief is true. But you have yet to demonstrate that any appreciable number of people hold this belief as true. You have not even demonstrated that Dan Brown was aware of this belief for him to write _The Da Vinci Code_. > [@](#): > > All the characters, places, and events in the legend symbolically refer to organs, systems and processes of the human anatomy in the mastership of ‘The Great Work’ in the attainment of the ‘Sacred Marriage’. That’s not a cite, that’s just a restatement of your premise. **Telemark** requested a citation that shows legitimacy to your premise. **Alan Smithee** said: > [@](#): > > I **do** understand the rule, and I think it’s bullshit when you use it to turn a conversation into some kind of game. ALL knowledge-seeking can be compared to a quest because understanding the complexities of reality is difficult and challenging and sometimes requires giving up cherished beliefs and preconceived notions… > > What your “rule” doesn’t mean (or _shouldn’t_ at any rate) is that you put stumbling blocks and obstacles before those trying to learn and discuss new ideas. _That_ is what trivializes your myth - you come across as a bad stage magician using elaborate props to distract the audience from his lousy sleight-of-hand. If what you have to say is worthy of any great effort, it doesn’t need your artificail attempts to make the effort greater. What he said. **maatorc** , you don’t come across as having any wisdom worth learning, just a bunch of jumbled fortune cookie sayings regurgitated at will. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/257 "2008-09-30T17:26:47Z")
I want to see if he can post 100 times in this thread, with each post being utter nonsense, and wihtout positing to any other thread in the interim. I think he is up to the challenge. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/258 "2008-09-30T20:53:14Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You have not even demonstrated that Dan Brown was aware of this belief for him to write _The Da Vinci Code_. No one has demonstrated that Dan Brown was aware of _anything_ when he wrote _The Da Vinci Code_. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/259 "2008-09-30T22:56:58Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I didn’t make the claim, you did. You haven’t made your case so I disagreed with your interpretation. Would you care to back up your claims? Do you then mean, as is claimed by some to be true of the New Testament, that the Grail Legend is an historical record of actual events and personalities? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/260 "2008-09-30T23:02:42Z")
No, the Grail Legend, as must be distinguished from the Legend of the Grail for is it not true that that which precedes entering the body is not the same as that which follows exiting the body, may perhaps be entered in the books of history, but the story which forms the Grail Legend was written in many other pages, as we have learned, such as in Egypt and Brazil, in anatomical form, where the head sees but cannot touch the hands, while the hands can touch but not see the head. This is the corpus of truth, from which all like legends spring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=14)