# The Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922 "2008-09-17T01:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/261 "2008-09-30T23:18:37Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > Do you then mean, as is claimed by some to be true of the New Testament, that the Grail Legend is an historical record of actual events and personalities? Why couldn’t they just be stories? I don’t think the Harry Potter books are historical fact, but I also don’t think they are vehicles for transmitting any myth of occult anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/262 "2008-09-30T23:23:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > No, the Grail Legend, as must be distinguished from the Legend of the Grail … What is the difference between the grail legend and the legend of the grail? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/263 "2008-09-30T23:38:37Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Why couldn’t they just be stories? ‘Stories’ of what? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/264 "2008-09-30T23:41:33Z")
What do you mean of what? Sometimes a story is just a story without deep significance. The only options are not -It really happened or - It’s a myth of the Outer School based on the legend of Occult Anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/265 "2008-10-01T00:14:25Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What do you mean of what? Sometimes a story is just a story without deep significance. The only options are not > -It really happened > or > > - It’s a myth of the Outer School based on the legend of Occult Anatomy. > [@](#): > > (Dropzone post 175 - maatorc insert)Trust me: You are playing in the Big Leagues now and without that we will rip you a new asshole. The people so far have just been playing with you. Their claws are not out. Were that to happen you not only would not see what hit you but these people would leave you bleeding to death on the floor while their kittens continued to torment you. They know all about what you are trying to preach. They will eat you alive without SOME support for your beliefs. What with your trivia, goodness gracious, what has happened here? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/266 "2008-10-01T00:30:48Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > What is the difference between the grail legend and the legend of the grail? Glands, Sir Gawain, glands. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/267 "2008-10-01T01:46:30Z")
> [@nd\_n8](#): > > Well, for starters there is this organization in the Bay area: > > [Web Page Under Construction](http://www.aynsof.org/index.html) That’s new age stuff…it’s not actual Kabbalah. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/268 "2008-10-01T02:20:16Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > Do you then mean, as is claimed by some to be true of the New Testament, that the Grail Legend is an historical record of actual events and personalities? No, I mean this whole anatomical theory. I see no evidence that it anything more then something a bunch of people making up stories after the fact. There’s nothing to show that your interpretation of the Grail Legend is anything more then a just-so story. Why would you expect us to believe this anatomical theory any more then we would believe that it’s all related to tropical fruit? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/269 "2008-10-01T02:28:32Z")
**maatorc, I issue this challenge** ; Answer these things I ask, in sentences of your own construction. Pretty please (No answering a question with a question - your answers must be declarative). > [@maatorc](#): > > Leonardo is associated with the myth because of his known connections with other occult anatomy-myth-based operations. 1. State Leonardo’s known connection with other occult anatomy-myth-based operations. > [@](#): > > … the Grail and other legends, **without exception** refer to organs, systems, and functions within the human being connected with the myth of human perfectibility. (bolding mine) 2. Name 3 mainstream sources for this claim. > [@](#): > > A ‘Myth’ is a knowledge system > I am saying the myth of occult anatomy exists 1. Where is all of this “non-secret and quite readily available literature” (that has been subjected to peer review) on the subject? > [@](#): > > There is a group of people who have perfected a mental body and can function consciously while out of there physical vehicle. 1. Out of this group can you give us the name of three of them? > [@](#): > > There is one-only knowledge-system-myth of human perfectibility that underlies ALL religions **without exception**. (again, bolding mine) 5. See question 2. > [@](#): > > The legend writers of such as the New Testament and the Grail were very knowledgeable of the myth. 1. How do you know this? What is your proof? > [@](#): > > Bear in mind I am talking about the existence of the myth and not its truth or falsity. > [@](#): > > I have no interest whatever in whether one accepts or rejects the teachings of the myth as distinct from its existence. So you keep on saying. But you also say: > [@](#): > > The myth is the most important knowledge in the world. 1. If it’s not true, how could it be more important than, say, a Stephen King novel? And finally, 8. I understand this is not your point here but (out of curiosity) - Do you believe the myth is true? Yes or no answer only for this last one. I await enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/270 "2008-10-01T03:22:34Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > What is the difference between the grail legend and the legend of the grail? As I clearly said, we hold in one hand that which precedes entering the body, and we hold in the other hand that which follows exiting the body, and they are not the same, though they seem to be of one form, which is part of the overall body of the human story. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/271 "2008-10-01T03:30:07Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > As I clearly said, we hold in one hand that which precedes entering the body, and we hold in the other hand that which follows exiting the body, and they are not the same, though they seem to be of one form, which is part of the overall body of the human story. Does your location explain this reply, or does this reply explain your location. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/272 "2008-10-01T03:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](#): > > > > **maatorc, I issue this challenge** … > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Quote: > > > The legend writers of such as the New Testament and the Grail were very knowledgeable of the myth. > > > > 1. How do you know this? What is your proof? > > It is all in the reading. For the rest: It is all in the reading. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/273 "2008-10-01T04:43:43Z")
Do you plan on responding to anything I wrote in my last post? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/274 "2008-10-01T05:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by maatorc View Post > Do you then mean, as is claimed by some to be true of the New Testament, that the Grail Legend is an historical record of actual events and personalities? > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Why couldn’t they just be stories? I don’t think the Harry Potter books are historical fact, but I also don’t think they are vehicles for transmitting any myth of occult anatomy. The religious-spiritual occult-anatomy based legends are of an entirely different category-mindset to what you mention. As in the case of the NT and Grail, the context-theme points to the myth. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/275 "2008-10-01T05:30:08Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > Does your location explain this reply, or does this reply explain your location. My location and my reply are the same; they are both mythical, and yet they are both true. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/276 "2008-10-01T05:56:10Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > My location and my reply are the same; they are both mythical, and yet they are both true. I must agree: The form of your reply does seem well located. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/277 "2008-10-01T05:59:04Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The religious-spiritual occult-anatomy based legends are of an entirely different category-mindset to what you mention. > > As in the case of the NT and Grail, the context-theme points to the myth. Whatever.:rolleyes: Like I said, real knowledge doesn’t have to hide behind stupid games. Either you have something worthy of a discussion or you don’t. The only question I have now is who duped you into believing you knew something about this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/278 "2008-10-01T06:11:44Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > For the rest: It is all in the reading. OK, that’s what I thought. There is no substance. All smoke and mirrors. I’m outta here… [Bush] Now the left hand knows what the right hand has been doing [/Bush] ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/279 "2008-10-01T06:18:56Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > For the rest: It is all in the reading. I’ve been lurking this thread for amusement purposes, but this has taken the fun out of it. No amount of reading the texts you’ve linked to will answer the last two questions of DFtH’s. They require your personal input. You, sir, are not being intellectually honest. And that’s about all I can say this side of the pit. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/280 "2008-10-01T06:45:33Z")
> [@warmgun](#): > > I’ve been lurking this thread for amusement purposes, but this has taken the fun out of it. No amount of reading the texts you’ve linked to will answer the last two questions of DFtH’s. They require your personal input. > You, sir, are not being intellectually honest. And that’s about all I can say this side of the pit. > [@](#): > > ( maatorc insert - Dfth ) > 7. If it’s not true, how could it be more important than, say, a Stephen King novel? > And finally, > 8. I understand this is not your point here but (out of curiosity) - Do you believe the myth is true? Yes or no answer only for this last one. If it were not true it would not be more important than a … novel. It is true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=15)