# The Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922 "2008-09-17T01:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/341 "2008-10-04T05:51:19Z")
Well, perhaps he’s just confused; after all, when one refers to the “inner” school, one is actually talking about an outer phenomenon, since it’s merely an accident of historical recollection that the external should have been named after the internal, which is understandable because it is a place you enter only by working to leave it, that is, to go in, you must go out. With this in mind, it is easy to see how he could overlook the inner school as being something which is not where it is ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/342 "2008-10-04T05:52:54Z")
FWIW, not that the game this thread has become aint fun… I was raised in and studied Judaism fairly extensively as I was growing up, I’ve studied the Kaballah both through the lenses of Jewish spirituality and Thelemic mysticism, held the rank of Minerval in the O.‘.T.’.O.‘. (or a group claiming to hold lineal descent from them), read the works of the G.’.D.'. that are available, practiced the rituals and pathworkings of Thelema, trained in kundalini yoga and pranayama, and still consider myself to be part and parcel of the Great Work. And I have _no idea, at all_ what the OP is going on about. That being said, I’ve just been reminded: > [@Cervaise](#): > > Well, perhaps he’s just confused; after all, when one refers to the “inner” school, one is actually talking about an outer phenomenon, since it’s merely an accident of historical recollection that the external should have been named after the internal, which is understandable because it is a place you enter only by working to leave it, that is, to go in, you must go out. With this in mind, it is easy to see how he could overlook the inner school as being something which is not where it is 23 Skidoo What man is at ease in his Inn? Get out. Wide is the world and cold. Get out. Thou has become an in-itiate. Get out. But thou canst not get out by the way thou camest in. The Way out is THE WAY. Get out. For OUT is Love and Wisdom and Power. Get OUT. If thou has T already, first get UT. Then get O. And so at last get OUT. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/343 "2008-10-04T15:28:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And I have _no idea, at all_ what the OP is going on about. At the very least I think it is fair to say that it no longer is even tangentially related to the Grail or any legend-myth-system-worship. The OP is talking about one thing. Itself. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/344 "2008-10-04T21:24:42Z")
Agreed, it’s all original, there ain’t even no turtles down there. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/345 "2008-10-04T23:00:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …And I have _no idea, at all_ what the OP is going on about… You are at least honest about it. No one else here understands it either, which explains the schoolyard tag game level of word play to pretend that food in and faeces out demonstrates deep and meaningful scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/346 "2008-10-04T23:11:38Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > No one else here understands it either I understand just fine. You posit that all mystical/esoteric doctrines/practices of both Eastern and Western religions are actually based on an ur myth of occult anatomy. This myth is supported and promoted (though quietly and only to those who seek it with Great Effort) by members of an Inner School. The myth of occult anatomy (the most important knowledge in the world) is one of human perfection through Great Work. Through body centered meditation and other means, one can achieve a state of pineal and pituitary known as the Sacred Marriage. A person in such a state has attained the Grail and can project their astral body outside their physical body. It seems, that I understand just fine. If I got something wrong, please tell me. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/347 "2008-10-05T04:36:39Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I understand just fine. > You posit that all mystical/esoteric doctrines/practices of both Eastern and Western religions are actually based on an ur myth of occult anatomy. This myth is supported and promoted (though quietly and only to those who seek it with Great Effort) by members of an Inner School. > The myth of occult anatomy (the most important knowledge in the world) is one of human perfection through Great Work. Through body centered meditation and other means, one can achieve a state of pineal and pituitary known as the Sacred Marriage. A person in such a state has attained the Grail and can project their astral body outside their physical body. > It seems, that I understand just fine. If I got something wrong, please tell me. You are generally right, a bit fuzzy here and there, but I will not quibble. I take it that your problem is that while you see what I say, you think it is untrue. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/348 "2008-10-05T04:40:46Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > I take it that your problem is that while you see what I say, you think it is untrue. That’s it exactly. In my view, you’ve made claims that run counter to what I know and you haven’t backed those claims up with evidence. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/349 "2008-10-05T04:50:52Z")
I think the biggest problem is that, by any standard that we respect on this board, you haven’t presented anything to show that this isn’t something that you made up and convinced yourself is true. Which is fine as far as it goes, but not if you chose to present it as something else. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/350 "2008-10-05T04:56:42Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > You are generally right, a bit fuzzy here and there, but I will not quibble. > I take it that your problem is that while you see what I say, you think it is untrue. I don’t think anyone here didn’t have that much figured out. I, for one, wanted to _discuss_ these ideas. Why on earth would you expect us to just accept them? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/351 "2008-10-05T06:26:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > That’s it exactly. In my view, you’ve made claims that run counter to what I know and you haven’t backed those claims up with evidence. The short answer is that no matter how much of what you call ‘evidence’ is offered it will not prove the existence, truth, or falsity of the myth. My position is not counter to what you KNOW, but counter to what you presently ACCEPT. Be flexible enough to research the several literary references already given. Try also “The People of the Secret”, ISBN 0 863040 38 1, by Ernest Scott. I am saying the myth exists. YOU must decide for yourself if it does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/352 "2008-10-05T06:30:22Z")
If no amount of evidence will do it, what should we use to decide if the myth exists? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/353 "2008-10-05T06:47:18Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The short answer is that no matter how much of what you call ‘evidence’ is offered it will not prove the existence, truth, or falsity of the myth. That makes no sense. Surely if it exists, then evidence can prove that it exists. The myth of Horus exists. We have plenty of papyrus, murals, and statuary that prove it. The myth of Jesus exists. Besides all the modern Bibles and such, we have plenty of old clay tablets, statues and such. If the myth of Occult Anatomy exists, then there must be evidence. That evidence can be used to prove that the myth exists. > [@](#): > > Be flexible enough to research the several literary references already given. > > Try also “The People of the Secret”, ISBN 0 863040 38 1, by Ernest Scott. I’m flexible enough to read them. But I doubt that a local library will have them and I’m too broke to buy them. Why not post relevant passages? ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/354 "2008-10-05T07:16:47Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The short answer is that no matter how much of what you call ‘evidence’ is offered it will not prove the existence, truth, or falsity of the myth. We cannot know this until you actually provide answers and have them rejected. Please do the due diligence first by providing your ‘evidence’. When it is rejected _then_ you can make that claim. > [@](#): > > My position is not counter to what you KNOW, but counter to what you presently ACCEPT. No it is not. You refuse to provide any counter except vague links. People in this thread have given you MUCH more latitude than you deserve or than most others would get and yet you steadfastly refuse to speak your ‘truths’ in your own words - why is that? > [@](#): > > Be flexible enough to research the several literary references already given. I make you this promise, I will do what ever is needed to do the research you suggest if you will first convince me _in your own words_ that your theory is what you say it is. Like others here, I’ve never heard of it. And despite its apparent overwhelming obviousness you refuse to talk candidly about it. > [@](#): > > I am saying the myth exists. > > YOU must decide for yourself if it does exist. And I will as soon as you tell me in your own words what the myth is, where it originated, etc. Will you answer this one question in a straightforward manner? Why are you refusing to answer any question put to you in demonstrative way. Why be cryptic? Why answer questions with questions? A final question (and I mean this honestly): Do you really think your evasive tactics here are convincing? ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/355 "2008-10-05T14:03:43Z")
Screw the paper on “The One Myth that Binds them All” I want an abstract. Can someone kindly write one? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/356 "2008-10-05T15:20:18Z")
> [@warmgun](#): > > A final question (and I mean this honestly): Do you really think your evasive tactics here are convincing? Anyone stupid enough to fall for Maatorc’s nonsense would not require proof, so it would be more efficient for Maatorc to not waste his time by attempting to provide proof, and instead spend his efforts casting out assertions as widely as possible in hopes of netting those who do not require proof. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/357 "2008-10-05T19:11:46Z")
> [@](#): > > The People of the Secret By Ernest Scott - Octagon Press, Limited (1983) - Paperback - 263 pages - ISBN 0863040381 > > Are biological evolution and human history directed by a hierarchy of Intelligences, the lowest level of which makes physical contact with mankind? Do invisible guardians of this planet “seed” ideas into the earth’s cultures to prepare human beings for huge steps in their development? The author suggests not only that it may be so, but that it may also be possible to recognize these “People of the Secret.” Interesting, there is not much information online but I’ll check this out when I have time. I do know that the author’s real name was Edward Campbell and that was a Fleet Street journalist, and an acknowledged authority on circuses. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/358 "2008-10-05T23:06:08Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > You are at least honest about it. Perhaps I was too gentle. Let me rephrase so you understand this time: Whatever you’re talking about, it has no actual relation to the doctrines, practices, theology or mysticism of any of the groups I’m familiar with. I’m not familiar with it and don’t recognize it because it’s made up, invented, bullshit. It’s fiction. I “don’t know what you’re going on about” the same way that I can recognize certain people’s “The US Presidents are all serpent people from outer space” screeds without thinking that they’re going on about anything other than their active imaginations. You’ve been had. ```php ``` ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/359 "2008-10-05T23:16:12Z")
> [@warmgun](#): > > …tell me in your own words what the myth is… It is occult anatomy based human perfectibility. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/360 "2008-10-05T23:23:26Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > It is occult anatomy based human perfectibility. And do you believe this myth? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=19)