# The Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922 "2008-09-17T01:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/41 "2008-09-20T00:38:23Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So how can we tell the difference? Do you have an inside track to their minds or did they leave detailed descriptions? It is unnecessary to be able to tell the difference in the same way that many discuss the New Testament as if it is an actual true history of events rather than a legend transmitting a myth, or think the Grail Legend actually depicts real historical events. Many artists unaware of the myth will paint the last supper as a religious expression. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/42 "2008-09-21T01:58:57Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > It is unnecessary to be able to tell the difference in the same way that many discuss the New Testament as if it is an actual true history of events rather than a legend transmitting a myth, or think the Grail Legend actually depicts real historical events. > Many artists unaware of the myth will paint the last supper as a religious expression. That is, in the most literal meaning of the word, nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/43 "2008-09-21T04:04:37Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > That is, in the most literal meaning of the word, nonsense. Are you saying the New Testament and the Grail Legend depict actual historical events? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/44 "2008-09-21T04:09:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As far as we know, the pineal gland wasn’t even discovered until Galen in the 2nd century, and he didn’t know what it was used for (he thought it was a valve that regulated thoughts), so how could the Osiris myth and the New Testament (as you mentioned in the OP) refer to it? You may find “The Temple In Man” by R. A Schwaller de Lubicz, ISBN 0-394-73427-7, of interest. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/45 "2008-09-21T05:17:05Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > 1…No, as some of the artists may not have been consciously depicting the myth. Even if we accept this–the notion that Leonardo was consciously depicting a myth rather than the religious narrative–what evidence is there for this? After all, it’s not like Leonardo just decided one day to paint a wall expressing his beliefs in a particular myth. He was commissioned by the monks at Santa Maria delle Grazie in Milan to paint a fresco on the wall of the monastery’s dining hall (or “refectory,” to use the technical term). These circumstances were quite similar to that experienced by other painters commissioned to do Last Supper paintings in previous eras. I’ve seen drawings by Leonardo that are clearly preparatory sketches for the Last Supper. I’ve also seen drawings by him that dissect and analyze the human brain. But these are in different, unrelated notebooks. You’ll need to show me some piece of evidence that would clearly link Leonardo’s Last Supper imagery with his studies of the brain before I would seriously consider the idea that Leonardo’s painting depicts the myth that you’ve described. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/46 "2008-09-21T07:54:38Z")
> [@Gotterfunken](#): > > Even if we accept this–the notion that Leonardo was consciously depicting a myth rather than the religious narrative–what evidence is there for this? … Let us say that you take the position that Leonardo was not consciously depicting the myth: I will accept that. Leonardo is associated with the myth because of his known connections with other occult anatomy-myth-based operations. If his ‘Last Supper’ is not a deliberate depiction of the myth, as is taken to be the case in certain myth-based-organizations, it changes nothing about the existence of the myth outside the art work of Leonardo. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/47 "2008-09-21T15:02:34Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > If his ‘Last Supper’ is not a deliberate depiction of the myth, as is taken to be the case in certain myth-based-organizations, it changes nothing about the existence of the myth outside the art work of Leonardo. Right, but the “myth” only dates back to Manly Hall, who took a bunch of unrelated stories from different groups and invented an overarching myth about occult anatomy from them. He invented it. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/48 "2008-09-22T00:23:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but the “myth” only dates back to Manly Hall, who took a bunch of unrelated stories from different groups and invented an overarching myth about occult anatomy from them. He invented it. No, the myth dates back to the legends of human perfectibility typified by Osiris, Jesus, Kabala, Alchemy, and the Grail. Manly Palmer Hall simply discusses the connections and summarizes the traditions. If you are seriously saying MPH ‘invented’ the occult anatomical knowledge system why is it the underlying ideas in Osiris-Jesus-Kabala-Alchemy-Grail legends are identical? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/49 "2008-09-22T02:12:00Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > If you are seriously saying MPH ‘invented’ the occult anatomical knowledge system why is it the underlying ideas in Osiris-Jesus-Kabala-Alchemy-Grail legends are identical? I’m saying they aren’t identical. Osiris is an Egyptian god of agriculture who was also the god of the dead, and he can best be associated with the annual flooding, receding of the Nile. Jesus was a Jewish religious teacher who came to be worshiped as a god by his followers. Like Osiris, he supposedly died and came back to life, but his death and resurrection carry with it a meaning of spiritual redemption. Kabalah is a Jewish mystical tradition of the middle ages/early modern period that attempts to explain why there is evil in the world and why Jews suffer if there’s an omnipotent God. Alchemy is the pseudoscience that deals with the transformation of matter, and the mystical tradition that grew around that. The Grail legend, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, is a Medieval McGuffin developed around the stories of King Arthur. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/50 "2008-09-22T03:41:38Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > Are you saying the New Testament and the Grail Legend depict actual historical events? No, I’m saying that your sentences are incoherent, ungrammatical, and, taken as a whole, devoid of any meaning whatever. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/51 "2008-09-22T07:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by maatorc View Post > If you are seriously saying MPH ‘invented’ the occult anatomical knowledge system why is it the underlying ideas in Osiris-Jesus-Kabala-Alchemy-Grail legends are identical? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m saying they aren’t identical. Osiris is an Egyptian god of agriculture who was also the god of the dead, and he can best be associated with the annual flooding, receding of the Nile. > Jesus was a Jewish religious teacher who came to be worshiped as a god by his followers. Like Osiris, he supposedly died and came back to life, but his death and resurrection carry with it a meaning of spiritual redemption. > Kabalah is a Jewish mystical tradition of the middle ages/early modern period that attempts to explain why there is evil in the world and why Jews suffer if there’s an omnipotent God. > Alchemy is the pseudoscience that deals with the transformation of matter, and the mystical tradition that grew around that. > The Grail legend, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, is a Medieval McGuffin developed around the stories of King Arthur. The _underlying ideas_ of the several legends of the myth are of course not the same as the several examples of _overlying trivia_ that you mention. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/52 "2008-09-22T07:38:43Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > No, I’m saying that your sentences are incoherent, ungrammatical, and, taken as a whole, devoid of any meaning whatever. Waht mnienig dnsoet qitve ptrateene yuor icimnrhonsoepen? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/53 "2008-09-22T15:38:38Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The _underlying ideas_ of the several legends of the myth are of course not the same as the several examples of _overlying trivia_ that you mention. But it wasn’t until recently that people found these similar “underlying ideas” and imposed a monomyth on whatwas a bunch of different myths. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/54 "2008-09-22T16:54:16Z")
What **are** the underlying ideas, **maatorc**? I’ve heard of some surface similarities between these myths, but I’ve never heard of occult anatomy, and Google isn’t helping. I know you linked to a couple of books, but I’d like the “For Dummies” version. Also, once you explain the underlying ideas, I’ll be curious how you think the myths tie together historically–is there evidence that the gospels, for example, drew on those earlier myths, or are we talking a Jungian archetype collective unconscious sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/55 "2008-09-23T02:21:08Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > What **are** the underlying ideas, **maatorc**?.. All the legends in different outer-school forms transmit the same inner-school teachings in which the “Great Work” articulates and preserves the myth of occult anatomy transmitted by the legends. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/56 "2008-09-23T02:26:17Z")
Could we get more detailed answers **Maatorc**. What you are saying may be clear to you, but it isn’t to us. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/57 "2008-09-23T03:23:36Z")
Yeah, more detail, please. I’ve never heard of “the myth of occult anatomy” before this thread. What is it? What does it propose? What does it teach? How was it developed and how did it become so widespread? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/58 "2008-09-23T03:57:12Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > Just like anyone who says “Leonardo” could mean da Vinci, **DiCaprio** … Please, that is like calling him “of Capri”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/59 "2008-09-23T05:05:33Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Yeah, more detail, please. I’ve never heard of “the myth of occult anatomy” before this thread. What is it? What does it propose? What does it teach? How was it developed and how did it become so widespread? As said, it is a vast topic. Initially, to try and get the feel of it, try Google: ‘Occult Anatomy’. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/60 "2008-09-23T05:26:32Z")
I tried that. Didn’t help. Seriously, can’t you give a brief summary? You started the thread with the claim that all this is well known and readily available. I can find web pages that introduce the basic concepts of quantum physics, Zoroastrianism, the current financial crisis, the Illuminati, Kibology, and nature’s harmonic simultaneous 4-day time cube. Surely occult anatomy can be explained at least as simply as any of those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=4)