# The Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922 "2008-09-17T01:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/161 "2008-09-27T01:13:49Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Why has nobody mentioned the Illuminati yet? Who are they? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/162 "2008-09-27T01:16:17Z")
What does meditation have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/163 "2008-09-27T01:35:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What does meditation have to do with anything? Meditation permits the yogic flyers to fly. By flying they unite the energy of the universe, causing goodness and light. At the same time, meditation provides the tantric aspect of ventricle porn, which again unitesthe energy of the universe, causing goodness and light. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/164 "2008-09-27T01:53:29Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > They are all focused on the human anatomy and the goal of perfection through transformation. In what way is Christianity, for example, focused on the human anatomy? And I will not accept your unsubstantiated statement that it is, either. Provide me with just one Christian doctrine which is focused on the human anatomy, preferably with documentation from an acknowledged Christian authority proving it. Giving me the title and author of a book which you claim supports your theory is not acceptable proof unless you also quote the actual text. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/165 "2008-09-27T02:25:55Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What does meditation have to do with anything? It is the universal creative process of the human constitution, employed by millions daily, whether or not they have ever heard of you or religion or occult anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/166 "2008-09-27T02:27:43Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > _In what way is Christianity, for example, focused on the human anatomy?_ Where did I say that? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/167 "2008-09-27T02:27:53Z")
and that’s relevant to any of your unsupported assertions how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/168 "2008-09-27T02:38:08Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > and that’s relevant to any of your unsupported assertions how exactly? It drives the technique of the myth. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/169 "2008-09-27T02:56:38Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > Where did I say that? Here: [QUOTE=maatorc] All the occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices associated with all past and present legend-based religions, Eastern and Western, are anatomically driven. Why do you think the orthodox Christian legend-based ‘empire-religion’ went to so much trouble to try to exterminate every unorthodox ‘occult-anatomy-based’ group? [/QUOTE] So, if doctrines and practices associated with legend based religions are anatomically driven and Christianity is a legend based religion then what specifically are some of the doctrines and practices of Christianity that are anatomically driven? Eucharist does not count by the way, it is driven by the spirit and the joining of our spirit with the spirit of Christ by His word and by the symbolic consumption of His body. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/170 "2008-09-27T03:06:03Z")
[QUOTE=maatorc] > [@LurkMeister](#): > > In what way is Christianity, for example, focused on the human anatomy? Where did I say that? [/quote] You said this: > [@maatorc](#): > > All the occult-mystical-esoteric _doctrines and practices_ associated with all past and present legend-based religions, Eastern and Western, are anatomically driven. > > Why do you think the orthodox Christian legend-based ‘empire-religion’ went to so much trouble to try to exterminate every unorthodox ‘occult-anatomy-based’ group? And in response to **DocCathode** asking you to explain how all mystical/esoteric practices are anatomically driven you replied: > [@maatorc](#): > > They are all focused on the human anatomy and the goal of perfection through transformation. Perhaps I misunderstood the first sentence of your original quote, but it seemed to me that you were saying that the doctrines and practices of all present legend-based religions are anatomically driven. Or does “occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices” refer to only a certain subset of those religions? If that is the case, then you may explain what you mean by “occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices” of Christianity, and limit your proof to only those Christian doctrines. \*eta - or what **nd\_n8** said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/171 "2008-09-27T03:42:52Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > In what way is Christianity, for example, focused on the human anatomy? He’s already admitted, in today’s post made at 8:26 P.M., that he was lying about Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/172 "2008-09-27T04:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by maatorc View Post > Where did I say that? > [@nd\_n8](#): > > Here: > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by maatorc > > _All the occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices_ associated with all past and present legend-based religions, Eastern and Western, are anatomically driven. > > Why do you think the orthodox Christian legend-based ‘empire-religion’ went to so much trouble to try to exterminate every unorthodox ‘occult-anatomy-based’ group? > So, if doctrines and practices associated with legend based religions are anatomically driven and Christianity is a legend based religion then what specifically are some of the doctrines and practices of Christianity that are anatomically driven? > Eucharist does not count by the way, it is driven by the spirit and the joining of our spirit with the spirit of Christ by His word and by the symbolic consumption of His body. You are right: A confusion of post references. I am saying in reference to …_All the occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices_…: _associated with_ meaning behind or underlying as in the myth of occult anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/173 "2008-09-27T04:11:20Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > He’s already admitted, in today’s post made at 8:26 P.M., that he was lying about Christianity. You are lying as to statement and time. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/174 "2008-09-27T05:04:22Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > You are right: A confusion of post references. > > I am saying in reference to …_All the occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices_…: _associated with_ meaning behind or underlying as in the myth of occult anatomy. Well, if I am deciphering your punctuation correctly, then you are excluding mainstream Abrahamic religions (whether those religions accept each other as from a common source or not) and quite a bit of mainstream Vedic beliefs (whether that belief currently recognises the authority of the Vedas or not). So what is left? Certainly some animist and polythiest beliefs but I would imagine that most of them are spirit centered rather than body centered. So your myth of occult anatomy is basically a doctrine binding radical and fringe groups outside of the mainstream. It also becomes physiocentric to the point of self worship over spiritual worship. Of course we recoginse the weirdos and freaks out there, what do their commonalitys have to do with mainstream beliefs? Are you, in some obtuse way, trying to suggest that mainstream belief systems are being manipulated by the fringe groups to some unknown ultimate end? Are you suggesting that the mainstream dogmas arose from the fringe dogmas and not the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/175 "2008-09-27T05:21:14Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Why has nobody mentioned the Illuminati yet? Blah, blah, blah: Can’t argue with that because Ican’t pin down what you are saying. More blah, blah, blah: Ditto. Even MORE blah, blah, blah: Is this where I ask to subscribe to your newsletter? 😃 **maatorc** , I’m nearly as big a lover of the Esoteric and Incomprehensible as you, but I, if you will forgive me, see it as the **FLAMING BULLSHIT** it is. You have brought NOTHING to this thread except incoherent bullshit. I ask that you learn more about what you are trying to preach before you try it again. As it is, you are flinging non-sequiturs like you were freakin’ Sarah Palin, and that is not a complimentary comparison. Here, the standard request is, “Come back. Bring pie.” In your case I ask that you, “Come back. Bring cogent argument based on a thorough understanding of Western Mythology.” Trust me: You are playing in the Big Leagues now and without that we will rip you a new asshole. The people so far have just been playing with you. Their claws are not out. Were that to happen you not only would not see what hit you but these people would leave you bleeding to death on the floor while their kittens continued to torment you. They know all about what you are trying to preach. They will eat you alive without SOME support for your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/176 "2008-09-27T05:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by maatorc View Post > You are right: A confusion of post references. > I am saying in reference to …All the occult-mystical-esoteric doctrines and practices…: associated with meaning behind or underlying as in the myth of occult anatomy. > [@nd\_n8](#): > > 1…Well, if I am deciphering your punctuation correctly, then you are excluding mainstream Abrahamic religions (whether those religions accept each other as from a common source or not) and quite a bit of mainstream Vedic beliefs (whether that belief currently recognizes the authority of the Vedas or not). > So what is left? Certainly some animist and polythiest beliefs but I would imagine that most of them are spirit centered rather than body centered. > 2…So your myth of occult anatomy is basically a doctrine binding radical and fringe groups outside of the mainstream. > 3…It also becomes physiocentric to the point of self worship over spiritual worship. > 4…Of course we recognize the weirdos and freaks out there, what do their commonalitys have to do with mainstream beliefs? They cannot harm or interfere with the true inner school. > 5…Are you, in some obtuse way, trying to suggest that mainstream belief systems are being manipulated by the fringe groups to some unknown ultimate end? > 6…Are you suggesting that the mainstream dogmas arose from the fringe dogmas and not the other way around? 1…All the main legend-based religions, Eastern and Western, are likewise myth sourced. 2…No, the myth is a knowledge system which is the true foundation of and tradition behind all the worlds legend-based religions. 3…The myth as such is not, although some individuals and groups exhibit an unbalanced approach to it. 4…Yes, there are many eccentric groups who are not genuine authorized outer groups or schools of the inner school who claim they are special and superior. 5…Fringe groups at all levels such as political, social, religious, are always trying to influence main groups: it just comes with the broad territory of our systems. 6…No, mainstream and fringe dogmas both arose from the myth. ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/177 "2008-09-27T07:19:05Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **maatorc** , I’m nearly as big a lover of the Esoteric and Incomprehensible as you, but I, if you will forgive me, see it as the **FLAMING BULLSHIT** it is. You have brought NOTHING to this thread except incoherent bullshit. I ask that you learn more about what you are trying to preach before you try it again. As it is, you are flinging non-sequiturs like you were freakin’ Sarah Palin, and that is not a complimentary comparison. Here, the standard request is, “Come back. Bring pie.” In your case I ask that you, “Come back. Bring cogent argument based on a > 1… \*thorough understanding of Western Mythology.” \* > 2…_Trust me: You are playing in the Big Leagues now_ and without that we will rip you a new asshole. The people so far have just been playing with you. Their claws are not out. Were that to happen you not only would not see what hit you but these people would leave you bleeding to death on the floor while their kittens continued to torment you. > 3…_They know all about what you are trying to preach._ They will eat you alive without SOME support for your beliefs. 1…I have seen no indication of an advanced knowledge of western mythology. 2…Many web forums have that opinion of themselves. 3…So far no-one has quite caught on to what I am saying. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/178 "2008-09-27T07:59:53Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > 1…I have seen no indication of an advanced knowledge of western mythology. Sorry, bro, but you’d be hard pressed to find a board where an “knowledge of western mythology” is more advanced than it is here. [/QUOTE] 2…Many web forums have that opinion of themselves. [/QUOTE] As a fellow crackpot I can tell you that THIS one is the one that has it right. You are really fucked bringing horseshit ideas here. > [@](#): > > 3…So far no-one has quite caught on to what I am saying. And does that make US wrong or does it tell you that you cannot explain your ideas to other people? Bro, here you will find some awful smart people, folks who can take bits of info incoherently presented and assemble them into a “theory” awfully close to what the presenter is trying to say. Quit trying to force-fit us into your preconception of people who only THINK they are smart. Give us the data and WE will tell you where you are wrong and, if you are not a complete idiot, what you can do to assemble a theory you can defend. For now, assume there are people here who know a helluva lot MORE about the hogwash you are presenting than you do. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/179 "2008-09-27T13:32:41Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > > [@nd\_n8](#): > > > > 1…Well, if I am deciphering your punctuation correctly, then you are excluding mainstream Abrahamic religions (whether those religions accept each other as from a common source or not) and quite a bit of mainstream Vedic beliefs (whether that belief currently recognizes the authority of the Vedas or not). > > So what is left? Certainly some animist and polythiest beliefs but I would imagine that most of them are spirit centered rather than body centered. > > 2…So your myth of occult anatomy is basically a doctrine binding radical and fringe groups outside of the mainstream. > > 3…It also becomes physiocentric to the point of self worship over spiritual worship. > > 4…Of course we recognize the weirdos and freaks out there, what do their commonalitys have to do with mainstream beliefs? They cannot harm or interfere with the true inner school. > > 5…Are you, in some obtuse way, trying to suggest that mainstream belief systems are being manipulated by the fringe groups to some unknown ultimate end? > > 6…Are you suggesting that the mainstream dogmas arose from the fringe dogmas and not the other way around? > > 1…All the main legend-based religions, Eastern and Western, are likewise myth sourced. > 2…No, the myth is a knowledge system which is the true foundation of and tradition behind all the worlds legend-based religions. > 3…The myth as such is not, although some individuals and groups exhibit an unbalanced approach to it. > 4…Yes, there are many eccentric groups who are not genuine authorized outer groups or schools of the inner school who claim they are special and superior. > 5…Fringe groups at all levels such as political, social, religious, are always trying to influence main groups: it just comes with the broad territory of our systems. > 6…No, mainstream and fringe dogmas both arose from the myth. You keep using the phrase “all the main legend-based religions, Eastern and Western”; am I correct in assuming that Christianity is considered to be part of that group? You say that “the myth of occult anatomy” is the “true foundation of and tradition behind all the world’s legend-based religions”. First of all, I haven’t seen where you have defined “the myth of occult anatomy” except for some references to the third ventricle of the brain which is somehow tied to “Sacred Marriage” (another term you haven’t defined). After you explain the myth of occult anatomy, could you explain how occult anatomy is the “true foundation of and tradition behind” Christianity? As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, before we can discuss your beliefs, we need to understand what they are. So far, all your responses to requests for explanations have been repetitions of previously unsubstantiated statements and claims that we are misunderstanding those statements. The reason that “we haven’t quite caught on to what you are saying” is because you aren’t explaining it, you’re just repeating it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922/180 "2008-09-27T14:13:10Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > 1…I have seen no indication of an advanced knowledge of western mythology. I studied under Frye, hold an undergrad in classical mythology, and hold a grad degree that includes work in Arthurian legend. Now show us your creds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grail/463922.md?page=10)