# THE GRAMMAR POLICE HAVE ARRIVED **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069 "2000-05-20T21:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/1 "2000-05-20T21:08:34Z")
This is MY BIGGEST PET GRAMMAR PEEVE. I do this for a living, so everyone pay attention and do it right: Plural: Dogs, cats, cars, etc. Single possessive: Dog’s, cat’s, car’s, etc. Plural possessive: Dogs’, cats’, cars’, etc. BUT: Person’s and people’s, woman’s and women’s, man and men’s, child and children’s HERE’S WHERE IT GETS TOUGH – Single possessive of a noun or proper name ending in “s”: bass’s (NOT bass’), Jones’s (NOT Jones’), Ramirez’s (NOT Ramirez’). Example: “Mr. Jones’s attorney has filed suit against Mr. Ramirez’s company.” Plural of a noun or proper name ending in “s”: Joneses, Ramirezes, losses, masses. Example: “Masses of people are counting their losses after trying to keep up with the Joneses.” PLURAL POSSESSIVE of a proper name ending in “s”: Joneses’, Ramirezes’. Example: “The Ramirezes’ dog just peed on the Joneses’ new Lincoln Navigator.” Sources: “The Elements of Style,” by William Strunk, Jr.; and “The Grammar Bible,” by Professor Michael Strumpf ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/2 "2000-05-20T21:57:23Z")
It’s partially a matter of style. From _Working With Words: A Concise Handbook for Media Writers and Editors_ by Brian S. Brooks and James L. Pinson, bold emphasis mine: > [@](#): > > The rule forming the possessive case of nouns is to add ‘s to the end of a singular noun, ’ to the end of a plural noun: \*a boy’s goal, the boys’ goals. \* Here are some exceptions **made in AP style:** > > -Nouns plural in form but singular in meaning add only an apostrophe: _mumps’ effects, General Motors’ losses._ > > -Singular _common nouns_ that end in s add 's unless the next word starts with an s: \*a witness’s testimony, \*but _for goodness’ sake_. > > -Singular _proper nouns_ ending in _s_ add only an apostrophe: _Jesus’ birth_. \*\*(Or, with your example: Jones’ dog) \*\* Different, widely-published writing styles have different requirements. Both those listed by yourself and those I listed above are perfectly acceptable within their own environments. On the SDMB, there is no official style–so both are acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/3 "2000-05-20T22:08:25Z")
“Irregardless” “Between you and I…” ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/4 "2000-05-21T00:10:16Z")
This isn’t the way I was taught, so I’m grateful to **Ruffian** for his post. Using this rule would have been like stepping on a crack. Stuff learned in childhood is hard to undo. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Single possessive of a noun or proper name ending in “s”: bass’s (NOT bass’), Jones’s (NOT Jones’), Ramirez’s (NOT Ramirez’). Example: “Mr. Jones’s attorney has filed suit against Mr. Ramirez’s company.” > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/5 "2000-05-21T00:20:19Z")
Hay, theirs some good stuff in you’re post’s, **pugluvr** and **Ruffian**. I’d of included advise for verb tense’s to. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/6 "2000-05-21T00:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > This isn’t the way I was taught, so I’m grateful to **Ruffian** for his post. > \*\* Um…_her_ post. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/7 "2000-05-21T01:25:02Z")
Ruff, you’re really asking a lot here…I mean we’re still trying to teach some people the difference between “lose” and “loose!” (Don’t get me started on “your” and “you’re”!) ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/8 "2000-05-21T03:33:06Z")
**Ruffian** , I’m **so** sorry! But it’s another example of the difficulty of re-learning. A “ruffian”, in my experience, would never be female. Ruffians are always male, slightly less than loutish but a bit more than mischievous. It’s a cool nick though, and thanks for setting me straight. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/9 "2000-05-21T04:34:53Z")
Thank you thank you thank you! This is one of my major pet peeves as well. It has become more and more common for people to put an apostrophe in every frickin’ thing that ends with an “s”. I see it in print ads, TV ads, everywhere. Please…unless the CD, PC, cat, car, tree or whatever the hell else it is you are talking about _owns_ something in the sentence, don’t put a fricking apostrophe in there. It doesn’t need it. (Example: I see things like “Lots of CD’s for sale!” “I have several cat’s.”) What, pray, do these CDs or cats _own_??? If they don’t OWN anything, NO APOSTROPHE!!! Please please please please. And thanks again for starting this thread! ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/10 "2000-05-21T05:10:41Z")
From the book I cited above: > [@](#): > > Use an apostrophe to make the pulral of a single letter of numeral: A’s, 1’s I’m not sure if that includes “CD’s,” but I’m guessing not. This is the most flexible rule–I’ve seen both forms used often. But yes, an apostrophe to form plurals is extremely annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/11 "2000-05-21T05:37:32Z")
Thats all very well folk, but “sez who”? There is no recognized arbiter of English grammar, no tribunal of Grammar, etc. Those books are those author’s OPINIONS, and they have no more value than mine. Or yours. There is a book “Mrs. Thistlebottom’s Hobgoblins” which tears apart many of those so called “rules”. The one I like is where the author points out there is nothing wrong with a “double negative”, and in fact, it can be a useful tool for showing emphasis. Grammar is not algebra, two negatives do not nessesarily make a positive. Is anyone confused by those missing or unnessesary apostrophes? I do not think so. So, it does not matter. many of these self appointed mayvens are stopping English from evolving to a simpler language. They want to spell “tho” --“though”, even tho Shakespeare liked the simpler spelling, and it make more sense. There are also the assholes that make fun of a typo, as if the person making the error was illiterate, and can’t spell. Fie on those! Getet’h a lifet’h, thou poltroo’n. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/12 "2000-05-21T06:00:36Z")
Drive through the Midwest sometime and count the signs that say, “Try Are Fried Chicken Special!” It makes me weep. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/13 "2000-05-21T06:01:43Z")
{Ahem.} “Do it correctly.” Chip, formerly the Chief, by popular acclaim, of the Spelling and Grammar Police. p.s. The S&GP have (yes, plural) been here for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/14 "2000-05-21T06:14:36Z")
Monty: the S&GP? any relation to the Keystone Kops? 😃 I can’t find them in MY list of Federal Law enforcement Agencies. 😃 Guess I gotta get a newer edition… 😃 Do you guys correct all the errors in that “cummings” guy’s poetry too? Man, that guy uses almost NO punctuation, or cap’s. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![speakeasy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@speakeasy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/speakeasy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/15 "2000-05-21T06:27:29Z")
AAAGGHHH!! Mavens!! Oh well, while we’re at it… Gee, its getting kinda cozy up here on this soap box. When contracting words, a handy rule to remember is the apostrophe goes in place of the missing letters. We’re I’ll Don’t Affect / Effect - Affect is a verb, effect is a noun. Affect means to act upon. Effect is the result. I before E except after C except in the following list of 14,642 specialized and archaic words: ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/16 "2000-05-21T06:55:30Z")
I agree with **Danielinthewolvesden**. It is all opinion. If I disagree with someone’s grammer, I keep it to myself. And I get slightly annoyed when people _sic_ the dogs on me when they quote me. But, since we are here. When do you ever use a “;” and for that matter why is it under “:” on the keyboard. Also, “lets” is a contraction of let us. Why no apostrophe? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/17 "2000-05-21T06:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not sure if that includes “CD’s,” but I’m guessing not. This is the most flexible rule–I’ve seen both forms used often. No, of course not. “CD” is not a _single_ number or letter. Besides, “CD” is just a tip of the iceberg. People are apostrophe-ing every damned thing. This is happening, more and more. My sister belongs to an ocarina mail list (ocarinas are a musical instrument) and people are forever spelling them “ocarina’s”. It annoys her as well. It’s just dumb. We all make our errors in grammar and spelling. And sure, it’s rude to make a huge personal issue out of someone else’s mistake. But this thread is pointing no fingers, and I don’t think it is meant to be taken with grave seriousness. But it’s a legitimate pet peeve, and the Pit is sure the place for it! I know I make many errors myself. When I see some spelling/grammar error pointed out that I know I do, I sure as hell am not going to keep on repeating that error knowingly. I don’t think it’s too difficult to remember to NOT put an apostrophe in a plural word. It isn’t a complex “rule”, it’s simple and obvious. Which is why I think many of us find the misuse of apostrophes so grating. ---
**Author:** ![Beakeroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@Beakeroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beakeroni)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/18 "2000-05-21T07:13:07Z")
You may do as you wish. Be prepared for the editor, however, if you wish to write for publication. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/19 "2000-05-21T08:32:13Z")
Speakeasy: “Affect is a verb, effect is a noun”. Ummm: Oxford Illustrated Dictionary “Affect/…often confused with ‘effect’, which as a VERB…” (Caps mine). 😛 Beaker: I have published quite a few documents in my time, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2000, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069/20 "2000-05-21T09:39:40Z")
Of course, I’m referring to the elapsed time it took before dannie boy and {none}2{much}sense post, yet again, on a subject of which they, collectively, know less than a grain’s worth. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-grammar-police-have-arrived/20069.md?page=2)