# The Great "Agnostics are atheists" question! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321 "2010-02-17T13:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/41 "2010-02-17T17:50:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > For **Dio** - I have no proof that unicorns exist, but I haven’t seen the entire world. 🙂 The question is not just whether you think they could possibly exist, but whether you think they are _equally_ as likely to exist as not to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/42 "2010-02-17T17:52:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The question is not just whether you think they could possibly exist, but whether you think they are _equally_ as likely to exist as not to exist. That’s a meaningless measurement. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/43 "2010-02-17T17:53:09Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I actually think that is a pretty good description of my particular leanings. You may not have seen my take on it on the boards before because I don’t get into religion too often. My take on atheists is that they actually do have a belief - they believe there is no God (and sometimes as rabidly as theists). I don’t have that belief - I have a lack of belief. Theists and atheists are both more assertive in their beliefs than agnostics, I think - I reserve all judgement on the subject because I don’t have enough information. > > For **Dio** - I have no proof that unicorns exist, but I haven’t seen the entire world. 🙂 Thank you, Cat Whisperer. I’m not sure why this disposition gets these people so out of sorts…but it is not an unusual disposition among agnostics at all. And like you, when dealing with atheists, I tend to listen to the music…not the lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/44 "2010-02-17T18:00:47Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > I am not assigning probability to this and I have already mentioned that. The only reason I checked that box in the other thread…was because that was the only option that came close to my position…which I then posted as a response. This is a pretty evasive response. Let me ask it this way – do you think that the existence of Loki is just as possible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? Do you have a problem with people calling Norse mythology mythology? Do you argue with peope and try to tell them they can’t possibly prove that Loki doesn’t exist? > [@](#): > > I have decided independently that what we call “existence” could just BE (and always has BEEN)…or it could be a manifestation of a god or gods. Or the Matrix. You can’t rule out the Matrix, can you? > [@](#): > > I have no evidence for or against the existence of gods…so I am not able to make a meaningful guess in either direction. Can you make a meaningful guess about the existence of Zeus? > [@](#): > > I see no evidence that gods are impossible…I see no evidence that they are necessary. Two uninteresting points that no one is disputing. > [@](#): > > I cannot rule them in or out…and I cannot make a meaningful guess in either direction. Can you make a meaningful guess about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? > [@](#): > > I also suggest that if you were actually applying the logic you atheists are always bragging about…you would come to that same conclusion. If you want to talk about logic, you should start by looking up the meaning of the words, “null hypothesis.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/45 "2010-02-17T18:03:15Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > That’s a meaningless measurement. That’s an evasive response. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/46 "2010-02-17T18:04:49Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > And I have no misconceptions. I am an agnostic…not an atheist. You are an agnostic, fair enough, you do not know whether god/gods exist or not. Do you believe in god/gods or not? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/47 "2010-02-17T18:04:54Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > That’s a meaningless measurement. Wrong. The burden of proof and the null hypothesis aren’t based on a coin toss. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or the null hypothesis is not falsified. And that’s the way everybody actually works, despite silly protestations from some folks that IPU’s are just nonsense and don’t have to be addressed but we can’t have a null hypothesis when it comes to God and, gorsh, we just can’t place the burden of proof! Every day, we correctly and instinctively perform the logical calculations (because life would be unlivable otherwise). Is there an invisible monster that will eat you when you get out of bed in the morning? What’s the NH, where’s the burden of proof? Are there invisible cars that run up and down the streets, unpredictably? What’s the NH, where’s the burden of proof? Was the universe created last Tuesday before lunch and everybody who claims to be your family, friends, or loved ones are merely put there to mess with you by an evil prankster God? What’s the NH, where’s the burden of proof? And so on, and so on, and so on. I can wager that you don’t actually worry about invisible monsters, invisible cars, or the naughty prankster God. And that’s because we routinely use proper logic when it comes to all sorts of claims, but due to societal pressure we are expected to act differently with a few ‘special’ claims. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/48 "2010-02-17T18:07:06Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Thank you, Cat Whisperer. I’m not sure why this disposition gets these people so out of sorts…but it is not an unusual disposition among agnostics at all. Because it’s false, that’s why. Hasn’t it occurred to you that it’s just slightly irrational for you to try to dictate to other people what their beliefs must be based on their self-identification? Let me put it this way. If you really want to insist on your own definitions, then no one you’re arguing with is an atheist. > [@](#): > > And like you, when dealing with atheists, I tend to listen to the music…not the lyrics. You ARE an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/49 "2010-02-17T18:07:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I can wager that you don’t actually worry about invisible monsters, invisible cars, or the naughty prankster God. For myself, the answers are No, no, yes, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/50 "2010-02-17T18:13:08Z")
Well invisible cars and monsters would have no mass, wouldn’t they? So, not very menacing really. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/51 "2010-02-17T18:16:21Z")
[Not necessarily.](http://www.howstuffworks.com/invisibility-cloak.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/52 "2010-02-17T18:16:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a pretty evasive response. Let me ask it this way – do you think that the existence of Loki is just as possible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? Do you have a problem with people calling Norse mythology mythology? Do you argue with peope and try to tell them they can’t possibly prove that Loki doesn’t exist? > > Or the Matrix. You can’t rule out the Matrix, can you? > > Can you make a meaningful guess about the existence of Zeus? > > Two uninteresting points that no one is disputing. > > Can you make a meaningful guess about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? > > If you want to talk about logic, you should start by looking up the meaning of the words, “null hypothesis.” Hi, Diogenes. We are discussing whether agnostics are atheists here. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/53 "2010-02-17T18:19:23Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > You are an agnostic, fair enough, you do not know whether god/gods exist or not. > > Do you believe in god/gods or not? I do not believe gods exist…and I do not believe gods do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/54 "2010-02-17T18:20:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because it’s false, that’s why. Hasn’t it occurred to you that it’s just slightly irrational for you to try to dictate to other people what their beliefs must be based on their self-identification? > > Let me put it this way. If you really want to insist on your own definitions, then no one you’re arguing with is an atheist. > > You ARE an atheist. No…I am an agnostic. But I thought I mentioned that! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/55 "2010-02-17T18:20:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I actually think that is a pretty good description of my particular leanings. You may not have seen my take on it on the boards before because I don’t get into religion too often. My take on atheists is that they actually do have a belief - they believe there is no God (and sometimes as rabidly as theists). I don’t have that belief - I have a lack of belief. Theists and atheists are both more assertive in their beliefs than agnostics, I think - I reserve all judgement on the subject because I don’t have enough information. > > For **Dio** - I have no proof that unicorns exist, but I haven’t seen the entire world. 🙂 You seem to be confusing the people who advocate a position with the position itself. People who debate a particular issue do not encompass the entire spectrum of adherents to that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/56 "2010-02-17T18:21:57Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > I do not believe gods exist…and I do not believe gods do not exist. Okay, then we have just established that you are an agnostic atheist, since you don’t currently believe that any gods exist. If you take issue with this, then please tell us which gods you believe exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/57 "2010-02-17T18:22:33Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Hi, Diogenes. > > We are discussing whether agnostics are atheists here. Hi, Jr. Mod. > [@](#): > > I do not believe gods exist Hi, atheist. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/58 "2010-02-17T18:26:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@Diogenes The Cynic](#): > > > > The question is not just whether you think they could possibly exist, but whether you think they are equally as likely to exist as not to exist. > > That’s a meaningless measurement. Not at all, that’s in fact the absolute key distinction, and one which Frank seems to be avoiding answering. Just about all the intelligent non-believers on this board who have explained their position on God hold a position that is remarkably similar to Frank’s up to a point… it’s something like: -I see no evidence that God exists -Although I can not prove his/its nonexistence, at least in the general case -I find the existence of an unneeded and unobservable supernatural force less likely than its nonexistence (for the same reason that any invisible supernatural force/being is less likely than the nonexistence of it… occam’s razor, the null hypothesis, etc.) -Therefore, I assume he/it does not exist until proven otherwise, and use the word “atheist” to describe myself as someone who does not believe in God, despite my lack of full logical 100% ironclad proof of that position. Frank seems to agree on the first two points, but not the third and fourth, and I have yet to see him clearly explain why. In fact, I have no idea whether he in fact agrees with every little bit of it except for the “use the word ‘atheist’” part, or whether his position is in fact substantially different. So, Frank, which is it? Where do you differ from that position? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/59 "2010-02-17T18:27:08Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Hi, Diogenes. > > We are discussing whether agnostics are atheists here. Some are, some aren’t. You are. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321/60 "2010-02-17T18:28:15Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > I do not believe gods exist…and I do not believe gods do not exist. That makes you an atheist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-agnostics-are-atheists-question/529321.md?page=4)