# The Great American Bubble Machine - Matt Taibbi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785 "2009-07-03T03:50:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/41 "2009-07-04T21:26:42Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Long term solution: Roll back the size of the government, to shrink the size of the henhouse, and eventually knock it down. Then you don’t need to worry about the foxes. They will have to find their food on their own. Because with a tiny weak government, there will be no private power stronger than government & able to buy off governments. Riiight. > [@](#): > > I’m going to already assume you opposed the stimulus package, the bank bailouts, the current proposals for cap-and-trade, and the re-jiggering of shareholders rights for the Chrysler and GM bailouts. Good. No need to revisit those again. Nope. I’m in favor of the stimulus (& pork in general). Pork is diffuse by nature, & not necessarily the kind of corporate giveaway that endangers us. I’m in favor of a carbon tax, which will incentivize the country to husband its remaining reserves more conservatively. I have no opinion on “rejiggering of shareholders rights” for GM/Chrysler. I was opposed to the bank bailout. For that money we could have built Gundams. > [@](#): > > Going forward, I am also going to assume you oppose any efforts to expand the governments reach into healthcare. I am also going to assume you support the gradual dismantling of Social Security and Medicare, since those are $55 trillion liabilities just waiting to attract more foxes into the henhouse. HA! Really? Distributing money to the general populace is an attractant? I’d think massive giveaways to special private concerns would be the problem. Nope, I in fact favor a redistributive negative income tax, far larger than the present Earned Income Credit. And government-supported hospitals. > [@](#): > > Longer term, I am going to assume you support a much reduced role for the Federal Reserve, and a plan to return to a commodity-based currency standard. Yeah, sure, if you want 1800’s-style boom-bust cycles. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Removal of trade barriers and general overall reduction of regulation are a given, of course. Those two really ring the dinner bell for the foxes (industry lobbyists) to craft and distort legislation to their advantage. Finally, something we almost agree on. I would love to have open borders, so that market forces will eventually equalize the income disparity between México, Guatemala, & “_el Norte_”. What? That’s not what you meant? As for regulation, I hope you don’t mean OSHA & EPA. I could roll back ADA happily, but threats to the public health should be fought. > [@](#): > > I like the term limits thing you propose. Yeah, talk to my state’s legislators about term limits. “Law of unintended consequences” comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/42 "2009-07-04T22:12:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ring ,ring can you hear that. that is an alarm clock trying to wake you up. You have essentially come out against the American system. Do you really think we should not have taxes? You are a starve the beast anti government neanderthal conservative. You live in a world of sophistry. Do you think the most powerful nation in the world would not have the most powerful leader in the world.? Should we be run by a committee? > My reaction to Paulson is that he got extremely rich off the anti regulation system of economics that he and his financial pros pushed into existence. as Tiabbi says, Paulson ,Bernanke and all the others in charge are part of the creation and looting of the wealth of the people. They should not be allowed near it. They should be running rapidly from people with torches and tar and feathers. Groan. I knew I was wasting my time. Of course, I am supportive of government funding for - Common defense - Judicial system - Police forces to protect our rights - Vouchers for public education - Vouchers for health insurance …and that’s about it. Would be happy to debate points 4 and 5 above. I’ve tried in other forums but it quickly degenerates into nonsensical ranting and raving, a point which this thread is quickly approaching. Also for a much reduced role (perhaps even zero) for the Federal Reserve and a commodity-based currency, as discussed above. If all you do is fund points 1 through 5 above, you cut 75+% of the crap in Washington. Hank Paulson and his buddies go away. ADM, Halliburton and all those unsavory characters go away. There really isn’t any reason for a revolving door between Congress, lobbyists and all the mean people you excoriate above. But like I said above, serves me right for taking the bait. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/43 "2009-07-04T22:22:19Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > P1. Because with a tiny weak government, there will be no private power stronger than government & able to buy off governments. Riiight.Nope. I’m in favor of the stimulus (& pork in general). > > P2. Pork is diffuse by nature, & not necessarily the kind of corporate giveaway that endangers us. > P3. I’m in favor of a carbon tax, which will incentivize the country to husband its remaining reserves more conservatively. > I have no opinion on “rejiggering of shareholders rights” for GM/Chrysler. > > I was opposed to the bank bailout. For that money we could have built Gundams.HA! Really? Distributing money to the general populace is an attractant? I’d think massive giveaways to special private concerns would be the problem. > > P4. Nope, I in fact favor a redistributive negative income tax, far larger than the present Earned Income Credit. And government-supported hospitals. > > P5. Yeah, sure, if you want 1800’s-style boom-bust cycles. :rolleyes: Finally, something we almost agree on. I would love to have open borders, so that market forces will eventually equalize the income disparity between México, Guatemala, & “_el Norte_”. What? That’s not what you meant? > > P6. As for regulation, I hope you don’t mean OSHA & EPA. I could roll back ADA happily, but threats to the public health should be fought.Yeah, talk to my state’s legislators about term limits. “Law of unintended consequences” comes to mind. Amazingly, you and I completely agree on quite a few things. But not at the beginning, unfortunately. P1. ‘Buy off’ government to do what? What is there to buy? Your sentence is self-contradictory. P2. I have absolutely no idea what this means. P3. Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding! So am I! Isn’t that amazing? Let me ask you something…why aren’t we having a carbon tax, instead of cap-and-trade? Why didn’t we just do that, instead? I can think of 2 big reasons. Let’s see if you can think of those too, since we’re on the same page here. P4. Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding! So am I! Isn’t that amazing? Actually, I’m for an EITC as a _replacement_ for the education and health-insurance vouchers I suggested above. I would just rather give deserving poor cash, and let them spend it as they see fit. That would actually be easier than vouchers. But I suspect vouchers is more politically saleable. P5. You are utterly, completely wrong here. There were no 1800’s boom-bust cycles (except for the 1879 Long Depression, about which more in a moment) that even begin to rival the Great Depression, the 1970’s stagflation, and maybe the current mess. The 1879 Long Depression (which was caused by government involvement in railroad bonds…somewhat similar to today’s Freddie and Fannie), the Great Depression and the other big ones were direct results of government overextension and interference in markets. The shorter, faster recoveries were in much freer markets. Read a little history and come back with the facts. Start with the 1920-21 recession, which started off much more severely than the Great Depression. But it recovered much more quickly, because the markets were largely left to work on their own. That’s why you never hear about it. P6. Of course I mean OSHA and the EPA. The EPA has the potential to address externalities in a rational way, but it never does. And OSHA is completely unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/44 "2009-07-05T02:50:50Z")
OSHA 1. requirement of guards on all moving equipment 2. chemical exposure limits (600 chemicals covered) 3. personal protection equipment regs-respirators, gloves, masks ,goggle protection 4. Lockouts for energy sources- devices to ensure power is off when equipment is being maintained 5. Buddy system-confined spaces, pits etc 6. chemical hazards -right for worker to know what dangers are from chemicals 7.bloodbourne pathogen rules-health care worker safety regulation 7. excavation regs-trench and pit safety for slopes and depths for workers 8. asbestos exposure regs- Yep, what good does OSHA do? How many lives have they saved? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/45 "2009-07-05T03:00:22Z")
So, no one’s really up for a discussion of how Goldman Sachs alumni seem to have infiltrated both the Bush and Obama administrations, to the enrichment of GS and the detriment of the American people, and have allegedly been instrumental in the 4 economic bubbles that have blown up the US economy? No? OK then. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/46 "2009-07-05T03:10:25Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > So, no one’s really up for a discussion of how Goldman Sachs alumni seem to have infiltrated both the Bush and Obama administrations, to the enrichment of GS and the detriment of the American people, and have allegedly been instrumental in the 4 economic bubbles that have blown up the US economy? No? OK then. Like I said, I find it interesting. But somewhat irrelevant. Because it misses the point. There is no way for GS to get enriched, at the detriment of the American people, if we eliminate the object of their affection. Which is our money. Elect members of the legislative and executive branch who will work to reduce the size of government, and therefore the reduce the take out of our wallet, and the problem will go away on its own. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/47 "2009-07-05T03:17:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > OSHA > > 1. requirement of guards on all moving equipment > 2. chemical exposure limits (600 chemicals covered) > 3. personal protection equipment regs-respirators, gloves, masks ,goggle protection > 4. Lockouts for energy sources- devices to ensure power is off when equipment is being maintained > 5. Buddy system-confined spaces, pits etc > 6. chemical hazards -right for worker to know what dangers are from chemicals > 7.bloodbourne pathogen rules-health care worker safety regulation > 7. excavation regs-trench and pit safety for slopes and depths for workers > 8. asbestos exposure regs- Yep, what good does OSHA do? How many lives have they saved? I suggest you go to work for only OSHA-certified employers then, since you’re convinced they will save your life. You obviously trust them more than your own judgment in these matters. Other people may see those things you list above as unnecessary, or things that add needless expense, or require a bribe to the local inspector, and may elect to work in places that aren’t OSHA-certified. They may be even able to negotiate higher wages as a result. I happen to have a friend who owns a machine shop down the street who does exactly that. Technically, he’s a criminal. But he and his workers seem to get along just fine. So you can have it your way, and workers and employers who want it a different way can have it their way, too. Just like Burger King. See? Isn’t that great? Isn’t it great what you can accomplish in a free society? So…we’re agreed that OSHA should be made a standalone, voluntary organization, funded by fees from employers who wish to be OSHA-certified. Excellent. Next up, the FDA. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/48 "2009-07-05T03:39:41Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > and have allegedly been instrumental in the 4 economic bubbles that have blown up the US economy? No? OK then. Allegedly is the key word here. I am continually amazed by the number of people who think prolonged, extended and painfully-popped bubbles are the result of free-market transactions between people who put their own capital and hard assets at risk. They aren’t. They can’t be. It’s impossible. Popped bubbles like the one we are experiencing are caused by the government mismanaging a fiat currency and its own books, and by not having a commodity standard to act as a check on their borrowing. Or by having a commodity standard, but then deciding to disregard the importance of convertibility by realizing too late that they screwed the pooch. That’s what happened during the 1920’s as a prelude to the Great Depression. I suppose it’s easier to blame investment bankers, or the stock market, or something. Politicians will love you for doing it, too. Because it takes the heat off them. Barack Obama has it down to a science. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/49 "2009-07-05T04:31:52Z")
Who the hell thinks it is about capitalists putting their own capital at risk? They never risked their own money in this fiasco. They created mortgages that would never be paid off. and they knew it, They collected good and bad ones into huge certificates and sold them around the world. Then they sold insurance that they could never pay on them. They were at no time risking their money. They made billions. Then they took the American treasury to pay off the bad ones while they were making huge bonuses. It was a total setup. We were suckered. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/50 "2009-07-05T05:13:22Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > … are caused by the government mismanaging a fiat currency… OK, I’ll hate myself, but I’ll bite. What in the blue Hell is a “flat currency”? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/51 "2009-07-05T05:30:40Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I’m a little surprised that [this article](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/28816321/the_great_american_bubble_machine) in _Rolling Stone_ has not received a mention, much less debate. > > While my knee jerk reaction to articles in _Rolling Stone_ is to automatically pooh pooh them, this one could change my mind. Why it was published here instead of NY Times, WSJ, etc - I don’t have a clue, other than maybe Rolling Stone is not as worried about financial repercussion from Goldman Sachs. Well, it was mentioned in a Sunday _New York Times_ [op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/opinion/05rich.html?ref=opinion) and from there the Rolling Stone’s article will probably be discussed in the Sunday morning news shows. But I’m sure that the [Vanity Fair article](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/08/sarah-palin200908) about Sarah Palin will show more results (and become more “news worthy”) than the Rolling Stone article. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/52 "2009-07-05T07:05:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, I’ll hate myself, but I’ll bite. What in the blue Hell is a “flat currency”? “Fiat currency” is money which is not backed by any form of guarantee that it may be exchanged for something specific. In a speculative bubble like a housing boom, the inflated price is propped up by the knowledge that if you buy now, you should at least be able to find another sucker to sell to at the same inflated price. For fiat currency, the ability to find a buyer is the only reason the money has any value at all. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/53 "2009-07-05T12:44:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I was opposed to the bank bailout. For that money we could have built Gundams. That was very funny. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/54 "2009-07-05T14:22:24Z")
[http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/04/taibbi-nyse-ends-transparency-to-protect-goldman-sachs/](http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/04/taibbi-nyse-ends-transparency-to-protect-goldman-sachs/) Now Goldman the biggest player in the market ,can operate without public scrutiny. The new rules favor one company. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/55 "2009-07-05T16:08:33Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I am continually amazed by the number of people who think prolonged, extended and painfully-popped bubbles are the result of free-market transactions between people who put their own capital and hard assets at risk. They aren’t. They can’t be. It’s impossible. > > Popped bubbles like the one we are experiencing are caused by the government mismanaging a fiat currency and its own books, and by not having a commodity standard to act as a check on their borrowing. Ah, but there’s the rub: the line between Goldman Sachs and the government has been blurred beyond recognition in some places. Look at the Treasury Secretaries of this and the previous administration, as well as other key decision making roles, and you’ll see they’re all Goldman Sachs alumni, and some still have a financial interest in the company. Hence, you can’t even talk about the distinction between free market transactions and government mismanagement, because they both flow from the same source. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/56 "2009-07-05T17:04:36Z")
Gramm, Greenspan,Friedman and Paulson were just members of a group that fought long and hard to get regulation removed. They believed and stated frequently, that the market was self regulating and had the best interests of the nation and the system at heart. That is too absurd to contemplate. Members of this board proffered the same arguments . How much evidence does there have to be to make it clear the government has a responsibility to protect the people and the government from the powerful. They have proven for over a century that they can not be trusted. They will loot from every corner of the sphere. They will eat each other. (like Madoff). Ethics and morals only limit the poor. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/57 "2009-07-05T17:32:37Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Ah, but there’s the rub: the line between Goldman Sachs and the government has been blurred beyond recognition in some places. Look at the Treasury Secretaries of this and the previous administration, as well as other key decision making roles, and you’ll see they’re all Goldman Sachs alumni, and some still have a financial interest in the company. Hence, you can’t even talk about the distinction between free market transactions and government mismanagement, because they both flow from the same source. The power for the government to mismanage has flowed from us, because we were the ones to dispossess ourselves of the power to do the things you describe above. It happened over time, of course, and was gradual. Electing Hoover, and then FDR to multiple terms, didn’t help. Electing LBJ didn’t help either. Nixon and Carter were bad. Bush was all over the map. Obama looks to be mind-blowingly terrible in this regard. Once we have given the government that power, then it has slipped largely out of our control. Then it will be GS, or someone else, who gets cozy and starts the revolving door. But we won’t have much say in that, because we’ve already given control away. GS or whomever can only get cozy once we have dispossessed ourselves of the power to make those choices. Keep the government focused on only those things they shold be focused on. Common Defense. A judiciary. Sound foreign relations. Maybe a few, small other things around the edges that involve externalities. We, as citizens, need to hold them accountable for that. And resist all efforts, and fight tooth and nail, for them to extract more of our money and grow their power beyond those tightly defined guardrails. If we do that, we won’t have to worry about GS or anybody else. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/58 "2009-07-05T21:43:41Z")
Most of the thieves in our financial markets would agree with your Libertarian concepts. But, in this world, the government is charged with protecting the hopeless citizens from the powerful.predatory and selfish people at the top. The more you leave these thieves alone, the more damage they will do. The entire system needs to be protected. It was a shock to see they could cripple the economies of all industrial nations with their antics. They absolutely have to be regulated. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/59 "2009-07-06T02:11:47Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > - Common defense > - Judicial system > - Police forces to protect our rights > - Vouchers for public education > - Vouchers for health insurance The last two are demand-side spending. Why not spend money on teacher training, physician training, & nurse training, & get more bang for the buck? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785/60 "2009-07-06T02:18:24Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Like I said, I find it interesting. But somewhat irrelevant. Because it misses the point. > > There is no way for GS to get enriched, at the detriment of the American people, \*\*if we eliminate the object of their affection. Which is our money. \*\* > > Elect members of the legislative and executive branch who will work to reduce the size of government, and therefore the reduce the take out of our wallet, and the problem will go away on its own. [Bolding mine] So if government shrinks, all our money goes away as well? Iiinteresting! Seems like the finance industry must have enough money already to buy its way into positions of influence without a large welfare state. Me, I want the welfare state in the Constitution. Give _the poor_ everybody cash, subsidize professional education, & bleed the private powers to do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-american-bubble-machine-matt-taibbi/501785.md?page=4)