# The "Great Books" that you want poo all over and then wrap it up in a bag, then down the chute. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379 "2011-08-11T21:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/81 "2011-08-12T14:32:31Z")
Oh, so many. I was in a book club that was working its way through one of those Top 100 Books of All Time type lists and there were so many that I couldn’t stand for one reason or another. _Anna Karenina_ (I have never cheered for a death before) _The Wings of the Dove_ _Heart of Darkness_ _Atlas Shrugged_ … and others I’ve blocked from memory. The bookclub broke up so we didn’t get terribly far into the list. I dug both\* A Separate Peace\* and _Catcher in the Rye_, but I think that’s because I read them when I was an angsty teen. I think now I’d want to slap the characters and tell them to grow a pair. Just a few weeks ago I was attempting to read _Perdido Street Station_ because a good friend said I’d love it. Too dark for me and I didn’t care enough about the characters to continue so I returned it to the library unfinished. I see it’s on the [NPR Top 100 Science Fiction & Fantasy Books](http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books) list, but I just can’t get behind it. Then again there’s a lot I didn’t like on that list as well (Xanth, The Sword of Shannara Trilogy, The Belgariad…) ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/82 "2011-08-12T14:35:58Z")
Pillars of the Earth, for the win. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/83 "2011-08-12T14:37:08Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > heart of darkness. never had 120 pages been so long I finally “got” that book on the third read. Honestly, once I read a footnote about the rivets, the whole thing came together. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/84 "2011-08-12T14:39:16Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I love science fiction and tried to love Heinlein, starting with _Friday_ and then _Starship Troopers_. I couldn’t finish either of them. The female in _Friday_ was so ridiculously caricatured and then _Starship Troopers_ was just… I don’t know what. Both of these writers tend to be pretty heavy-handed ideologically, and not in a way I really support, so I guess that’s the rub. FWIW, I love Heinlein, but you have to put him in a historical context (even his later books–he never got past some of the limitations of his era–even when he overreacted to the limitations being gone (like in _Friday_, he was still reacting to them) When Heinlein started writing, the BIG magazine was ASTOUNDING. They paid considerably better than anyone else and they had a lot of prestige..for a pulp. But in that era, women weren’t allowed to be anything but victims, spouses (mostly off camera), objects of quests, or (occasionally) villains.. Given those limitations, Heinlein _still_ managed to write women characters who fit none of the four categories. Especially in his short stories, he even dealt with surprisingly progressive ideas (this is the '40s, remember) like the glass ceiling ("Delilah and the Space Rigger), marriage as an equal partnership (“The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon Hoag”) and wrote women who enjoyed being women (with hints of enjoying sexuality…to whatever degree he could slip by). No other major science fiction writer of the era even tried to do that. I’m not saying you’re wrong to dislike _Friday_ or Heinlein’s portrayal of women in the stories you read, just that there’s a reason for it. I enjoyed Friday, but yeah, some of her characterization was weird and/or over-the-top. If you’re interested, check out the short stories in _The Past Through Tomorrow_ or _The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein_ and you’ll see a different side of Heinlein and his female characters. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/85 "2011-08-12T14:46:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > And put me down for loathing _Catcher in the Rye_. The prose was serviceable enough, but it’s basically a Judy Blume book (yes, I’m aware which came first) with swearing. A whiney, snivelly loser spends X pages whining and snivelling and not actually _doing_ anything to resolve their problems. By about page 50, I kept thinking that if his parents would ship his ass to a strict military school, he’d be kept busy and wouldn’t be able to obsess on his “problems” (and he had no real problems). Those were certainly my feelings when I read it. If I encountered it today, I might feel more compassion for the author–whose first published story, you might recall, had his author avatar commit suicide. This compassion wouldn’t make \*Catcher \*into a good book, though. ETA: Sorry to continue the digression. Eh, bien. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/86 "2011-08-12T14:47:14Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I’m not saying you’re wrong to dislike _Friday_ or Heinlein’s portrayal of women in the stories you read, just that there’s a reason for it. I enjoyed Friday, but yeah, some of her characterization was weird and/or over-the-top. > > If you’re interested, check out the short stories in _The Past Through Tomorrow_ or _The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein_ and you’ll see a different side of Heinlein and his female characters. Thanks, this is really interesting and helpful feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Yaxche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8dc957/32.png) [@Yaxche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yaxche)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/87 "2011-08-12T14:49:32Z")
_Confederacy of Dunces David Copperfield Catcher in the Rye Lord of the Flies_ …I think I’m in the wrong thread!?! These are a few of my favorites. And while I didn’t love _Heart of Darkness_, I appreciated the atmosphere of it. I haven’t read _Tess of the D’Urbervilles_, but going by my ‘opposite’ reaction to this thread, perhaps I should. I loved _Jude the Obscure_. Agree on _Atlas Shrugged_, though. Perhaps the point would be made better by someone who could actually write a novel instead of a lecture. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/88 "2011-08-12T14:50:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thirding or fourthing _Confederacy of Dunces_. Gad, that was dull. It was recommended to me as this big laugh fest. Not so much as a a chuckle, even once. Fifthing this? The worst part was that everyone who recommended it to me usually recommends things I end up really enjoying, so I gave it a better try than I should have. I got most of the way through before I gave up. I also couldn’t finish _Anna Karenina_ or _Tess of the D’Urbervilles_, but I don’t remember exactly why. I should probably give _Anna Karenina_ another try sometime, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/89 "2011-08-12T14:56:30Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And yet, plenty of sources in publishing will maintain that Nobels [are](http://us.macmillan.com/theglassbeadgame) given for specific works. I can see a publisher writing: “This stunning family chronicle from Nobel laureate Donald Duck…” making it seem as if the book in question earned the award. However, over at [Nobel.org](http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1946/) this is the whole commentary to Hesse’s award: _“for his inspired writings which, while growing in boldness and penetration, exemplify the classical humanitarian ideals and high qualities of style”._ Note the plural. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/90 "2011-08-12T14:59:36Z")
_A Confederacy of Dunces_ is pretty much a straightforward farce. Ignatius is not the hero, he’s a catalyst for chaos and the unwitting comic instigator of a series of highly unlikely events. And as with all good farces, humorous coincidences, misunderstandings and intersections create hilarity and then resolve improbably but neatly at the end. Unlike most farces, however, you’re not supposed to _like_ the protagonist (or at least not very much, although even he manages a happy ending of sorts). ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/91 "2011-08-12T15:36:55Z")
Guess I’m right on board with the hate for _Atlas Shrugged_. I never made it up to the 30 pages I try to give any book. Blecch! But I totally love Hardy and Steinbeck, and admire Faulkner’s writing. Sometimes I think that Good Books are introduced too early in school. I was assigned _The Good Earth_ in 7th or 8th grade, and just couldn’t get it. _The Great Gatsby_, however, resonated. Although I never read _Ethan Frome_ in school, I listened to it whilst driving across Iowa in early winter, with frost upon the fields, and the full moon causing the snow and frost to sparkle. Magical! ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/92 "2011-08-12T16:05:39Z")
**A Separate Peace** - had to read it in English class. About the best thing I could say about it was that it was written in fairly modern style so at least I didn’t have to wade through purple prose. But what a downer! **Moby Dick** - Ugh. English class too. Every page of that horrible book was a slog. It got a little better toward the end, but…ugh. **Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man** - Yep, English class. I tried, I really did. I had a crush on this English teacher, so I wanted to like it. Best thing I can say about it: It appears to be more coherent than Joyce’s other works. ---
**Author:** ![limegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@limegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/limegreen)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/93 "2011-08-12T16:34:49Z")
> [@OscarGold](#): > > [Tom Perrotta, Francine Prose, and others on "great books" that aren't great.](http://www.slate.com/id/2301312/) > > For me, it has to be Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen. I found the portrayal of Mr. Collins to be most… uncomfortable… for me… The reason? Well, I am a real-life Mr. Collins: A phony, an ass-kisser, a social-climber. > > How about you? You might try _Pride and Prejudice with Zombies_. It livened up the book quite considerably for me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/94 "2011-08-12T17:03:16Z")
There are only a few canonical authors who’ve written works I truly HATE. 1. I’ve liked a lot of James Joyce’s work. Honest. I liked _ **Dubliners** _, I liked _ **Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man** _, and despite its difficulty, I learned to love _ **Ulysses.** _ But I am suspicious of anyone who claims to have gotten past page 1 of _ **Finnegans Wake** _. Indeed, I’m suspicious of anyone who WANTED to keep going past page 1. I don’t trust anyone who claims to have read all of _ **Finnegans Wake** _, much less anyone who claims it was worthwhile to do so. 1. Herman Melville is painful to read. \*\*\*Bartleby the Scrivener \*\*\*was 40 pages but read like 400. \*\*\*Billy Budd \*\*\* was 100 pages but read like 1,000. For that reason alone, I will NEVER attempt to read _ **Moby Dick.** _ As I’ve said many times before: kids, if your teacher ever tells you to read anything by Herman Melville, tell her as firmly as possible, “I would prefer not to.” ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/95 "2011-08-12T17:34:34Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > 1. Herman Melville is painful to read. \*\*\*Bartleby the Scrivener \*\*\*was 40 pages but read like 400. \*\*\*Billy Budd \*\*\* was 100 pages but read like 1,000. For that reason alone, I will NEVER attempt to read _ **Moby Dick.** _ When I read _Billy Budd,_ it seemed to me almost as if Melville was deliberately constructing each individual sentence in as labrynthine a way as he possibly could. It’s like you have to wade through six or seven subordinate clauses before you get to the subject or verb. I actually made it through _Moby Dick,_ but it was definitely something of an ordeal. I thought the first seventy pages or so were pretty entertaining… then they get out to sea, and it’s like Melville thought “Nothing really happens out at sea, but I need to fill a few hundred pages, so I’ll spend one chapter writing about the forecastle and another writing about the bowsprit and another writing about the…”. I have heard, though, that his early works (like _Typee_ and _Omoo_) are straight adventure stories, so they might be worth a try. I also have to cast a vote for Thomas Hardy. I had heard good things about _Look Homeward, Angel_ and really wanted to like it. I had to stop after about two chapters… the prose just seemed so strained. Like he just _knew_ he was writing something _really deep_ and wanted to make sure you knew it. It seems to combine the worst features of Romantic and modernist prose. I disliked “The Death of Ivan Ilyich” but I didn’t think it was bad… it was just too intense for me. As someone who has reached the age at which I’m watching people I know die slowly, it hit a bit too close to home. Another book I really wanted to like was _Walden._ I tried hard, over a period of time, to get through it, and finally gave up about halfway. I think it may be a victim of its own success… the themes are overly familiar. I read _The Last of the Mohicans_ and found it interesting as a period piece, but good Lord is it ever slow paced. (Apparently, at the time, it was noted for being fast paced, which is an interesting commentary on how styles change.) ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/96 "2011-08-12T17:46:33Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I love science fiction and tried to love Heinlein, starting with _Friday_ and then _Starship Troopers_. I couldn’t finish either of them. The female in _Friday_ was so ridiculously caricatured and then _Starship Troopers_ was just… I don’t know what. It’s really a shame you started with _Friday._ Heinlein essentially became a parody of himself in his later years. If that hasn’t put you off him irredeemably, try some of his earlier stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/97 "2011-08-12T17:46:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I don’t trust anyone who claims to have read all of _ **Finnegans Wake** _, much less anyone who claims it was worthwhile to do so. I’ve read it all. I consider it one of my favorite books. I’ve even laid out for the [Houyhnhnm Press](http://www.houyhnhnmpress.com/finnegans-wake-prospectus) edition. I guess I’ll just have to get along without your trust. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/98 "2011-08-12T17:55:51Z")
my long rant seems to have been eaten by hamsters, so let’s just say I hate hate hate Phillip Pullman’s overpraised pretentious Dark Materials trilogy (“Golden Compass”) etc. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/99 "2011-08-12T17:57:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > _A Confederacy of Dunces_ is pretty much a straightforward farce. Ignatius is not the hero, he’s a catalyst for chaos and the unwitting comic instigator of a series of highly unlikely events. And as with all good farces, humorous coincidences, misunderstandings and intersections create hilarity and then resolve improbably but neatly at the end. Unlike most farces, however, you’re not supposed to _like_ the protagonist (or at least not very much, although even he manages a happy ending of sorts). excellent post! I love Confederacy, but I can easily see how Ignatius could turn someone completely off it. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379/100 "2011-08-12T17:59:37Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > Pillars of the Earth, for the win. Terrible no good awful book but I don’t think anybody’s calling it a “Great Book”, are they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-books-that-you-want-poo-all-over-and-then-wrap-it-up-in-a-bag-then-down-the-chute/592379.md?page=6)