# The Great Flag Debate of Utah (now moved on to additional states, currently IL) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 4, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694 "2023-03-04T01:08:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/181 "2023-11-23T09:38:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Apart from the fact that it deviates severely from the general principles of vexillology, I kind of like the one at the upper right. Got no dog in the fight but the “northern lights over a river” impression works ok on a static representation … would look rather giddying when unfurled and flapping in the wind … and I understand there is a bit of that about up that way. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/182 "2023-12-06T00:06:30Z")
MN Flag is still being debated, but the basic design of the state seal has been approved: > **[Emblems panel won over by call of the loon as state bird to grace Minnesota seal](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/12/05/minnesota-state-seal-loon-vote)** > > The State Emblems Redesign Commission on Tuesday voted to zero in on a new state seal that includes a loon at the center. It is subject to some modifications before being finally adopted. I like it. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/183 "2023-12-06T01:45:17Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/eb1viD56zkM/maxresdefault.jpg "It's been done") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1viD56zkM) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Canadian_Dollar_-_reverse.png?20150514040023) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Canadian_Dollar_-_reverse.png?20150514040023) [![](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WY8AAOSwktFdOTHS/s-l1600.jpg) ](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WY8AAOSwktFdOTHS/s-l1600.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/184 "2023-12-06T02:41:17Z")
Me too. Birds are good. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/185 "2023-12-06T03:05:49Z")
As someone from Minnesota, I’d say copying Canada is aspirational. We could certainly do worse. I wish the loon would have made it to the flag though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/186 "2023-12-06T22:06:15Z")
It’s time to get rid of all the remaining CSA state flags- **Georgia** first. But also Arkansas, Alabama, and Florida. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/187 "2023-12-06T22:16:14Z")
Not to mix metaphors, but Georgia’s flag is a sneaky dog whistle. They could have come up with a nice design like Mississippi. Their first attempt was widely ridiculed for how terrible a design it was, but the current one is sneaks in a CSA design in the hopes no one will notice. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/188 "2023-12-06T22:18:32Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > As someone from Minnesota, I’d say copying Canada is aspirational. We could certainly do worse. I wish the loon would have made it to the flag though. [![](https://img.apmcdn.org/c292c3d0f5487551fcfa86195ea85e474c22ed05/uncropped/b31320-20231108-flag-submissions04-webp1400.webp) ](https://img.apmcdn.org/c292c3d0f5487551fcfa86195ea85e474c22ed05/uncropped/b31320-20231108-flag-submissions04-webp1400.webp) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/189 "2023-12-06T22:55:11Z")
> [@gnarator](#): > > Not to mix metaphors, but Georgia’s flag is a sneaky dog whistle Sneaky? Its damn obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/190 "2023-12-06T23:05:05Z")
> [@gnarator](#): > > Blue and green for lakes and forests, I presume. Blue and green, sure. But that last one, with the reversed chevron… The lines are fine for a flag, but those particular shades of blue and green are practically a cure for insomnia. The bottom middle one, I think, isn’t bad, though it’d be improved by giving the concavities in the blue four-pointed star sharp corners instead of the slight curve that’s there now. You wouldn’t notice the difference, but it’d be that much simpler. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/191 "2023-12-07T00:53:22Z")
Y’know, it’s kind of an ass move to do the whole thing of birds with laser eyes w/o duly crediting New Zealand, who brought it up in their own flag kerfuffle from a couple years back. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/192 "2023-12-07T01:02:19Z")
Of the ones that didn’t make the finals, I rather like the use of the Nordic Cross in this one, I assume meant as a nod to Minnesota’s Scandinavian heritage. The star in the upper left looks a bit out of place, though. ETA: And it would probably be better to have a flag that represented _all_ Minnesotans, not just the ones with Scandinavian roots. [![](https://img.apmcdn.org/7279d6ff0bfeb9d2bfdbc8b91e9caed6275c1012/uncropped/689c68-20231108-f47-webp892.webp) ](https://img.apmcdn.org/7279d6ff0bfeb9d2bfdbc8b91e9caed6275c1012/uncropped/689c68-20231108-f47-webp892.webp) Of the loon based submissions, this one is rather nice. Probably a bit too detailed according to the rules of vexillology, though. [![](https://img.apmcdn.org/db1061732f6dae2261190d5bf68137dd034b21be/uncropped/68999b-20231108-f1409-webp1400.webp) ](https://img.apmcdn.org/db1061732f6dae2261190d5bf68137dd034b21be/uncropped/68999b-20231108-f1409-webp1400.webp) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/193 "2023-12-07T01:09:47Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > Of the loon based submissions, this one is rather nice. Probably a bit too detailed according to the rules of vexillology, though. I like that one too, but it looks almost as if the designer decided to put a Canadian dollar coin in the middle. The resemblance might not be quite as striking if somehow it could be simplified. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/194 "2023-12-07T01:18:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@gnarator](#): > > > > Not to mix metaphors, but Georgia’s flag is a sneaky dog whistle > > Sneaky? Its damn obvious. I’d guess if you showed that flag to 20 random people, maybe 1 would know it’s based on a CSA flag. I showed it my Ph. D educated wife, and she didn’t know that it was based on a CSA flag. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Y’know, it’s kind of an ass move to do the whole thing of birds with laser eyes w/o duly crediting New Zealand, who brought it up in their own flag kerfuffle from a couple years back. That flag was one of joke submissions for the contest. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/195 "2023-12-07T01:38:31Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I rather like the use of the Nordic Cross in this one, I assume meant as a nod to Minnesota’s Scandinavian heritage. Someone must have been watching the CGPGrey channel. > [@gnarator](#): > > I’d guess if you showed that flag to 20 random people, maybe 1 would know it’s based on a CSA flag. I showed it my Ph. D educated wife, and she didn’t know that it was based on a CSA flag. As I and others mentioned in one of the old threads about that, if they had just reverted to the pre-1950s flag it would have been far less obvious. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/196 "2023-12-07T07:11:46Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > As I and others mentioned in one of the old threads about that, if they had just reverted to the pre-1950s flag it would have been far less obvious. That flag and the new flag are obvious call outs to the actual CSA flag- the stars and bars. The flag wil the cross was the battle flag, not the national flag. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/197 "2023-12-07T12:53:04Z")
But the current one is not an obvious call to the stars and bars, it IS the stars and bars, with the addition of the GA seal. The Pre-1950s flag would at least make some people wonder if they were ripping off Texas or NC. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/198 "2023-12-08T18:39:40Z")
The GA state flag totally IS a CSA symbol. And the Southerners who it’s aimed at totally know that. Both the Whites and the non-Whites. There are probably many northerners and folks who’re not from the USA who would not recognize the flag’s provenance. As @gnarator said. But those folks are not the target audience the flag is aimed at. The flag is what it is to tell southern non-Whites that they are not welcome in GA except as prisoners, and to tell the southern Whites that in the state government’s official opinion, the South in all its odious slaving traitorism lives on today and _will_ rise again. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/199 "2023-12-08T20:27:00Z")
My wife is from Kentucky, with family in Arkansas. She did not recognize it as CSA flag. Everyone thinks this was the CSA flag, aka, the Confederate Flag: [![](https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/styles/wide/public/images/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/confederate-flag-1.jpg.webp?itok=rUJNUSNk) ](https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/styles/wide/public/images/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/confederate-flag-1.jpg.webp?itok=rUJNUSNk) I thought Georgia was being sneaky, especially compared to their '50s flag (or Mississippi’s). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694/200 "2023-12-08T21:14:41Z")
That’s the Confederate battle flag. The current Georgia state flag is pretty clearly based on the Stars and Bars, the first Confederate national flag. > **[Flag of Georgia (U.S. state)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state))** > > The flag of Georgia is the flag of the U.S. state of Georgia. Its current iteration was adopted on February 19, 2003. The flag bears three horizontal stripes (a red-white-red triband) and features a blue canton containing a ring of 13 white stars that encircle the state's gold-colored coat of arms. The ring of stars that encompass the state's coat of arms represents Georgia as one of the original Thirteen Colonies. > In the coat of arms, the arch symbolizes the state's constitution while the pi... > **[Flags of the Confederate States of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America)** > > The flags of the Confederate States of America have a history of three successive designs during the American Civil War. The flags were known as the "Stars and Bars", used from 1861 to 1863; the "Stainless Banner", used from 1863 to 1865; and the "Blood-Stained Banner", used in 1865 shortly before the Confederacy's dissolution. A rejected national flag design was also used as a battle flag by the Confederate Army and featured in the "Stainless Banner" and "Blood-Stained Banner" designs. Althou... > **[Modern display of the Confederate battle flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag)** > > Although the Confederate States of America dissolved at the end of the American Civil War (1861–1865), its battle flag continues to be displayed as a symbol. The modern display began during the 1948 United States presidential election when it was used by the Dixiecrats, a political party that opposed civil rights for African Americans. Further display of the flag was a response to the civil rights movement and the passage of federal civil rights laws in the 1950s and 1960s. > The display of fl... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-flag-debate-of-utah-now-moved-on-to-additional-states-currently-il/980694.md?page=11)