# The Great Green Lantern Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2001, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885 "2001-11-23T11:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/21 "2001-11-26T07:01:30Z")
Looks like a bunch of pro-Hal ers here… I was always a fan of John Stewart (no relation). I was aghast at the political incorrectness of taking the most powerful weapon in the universe from a black guy (who was part of the mythos) and giving it to an unknown brick of a white guy. I’m very happy about Stewart’s role in the TV JL series. I’m hoping the TV show’s popularity will result in Rayner dying heroically, tragically, and to my happiness, to be replaced by Stewart. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/22 "2001-11-26T14:47:44Z")
I started reading GL maybe six months before Marz left, although I’ve picked up various Hal issues along the way. (And I’ve read a lot of Silver Age Hal.) Hal hadn’t been an interesting character since Crisis, IMO, so I don’t particularly mind that they retired him. However, the way they did it was lame in the extreme. I’m not generally averse to heroes going bad if it makes sense given their already-established character, but nothing Hal ever did indicated that this could happen. Furthermore, they got rid of the GL Corps, which was always a great idea and had frequently been the best part of the GL comic back in the 80’s (at least of the several issues of that period that I’ve read) and also supported its own quarterly mag for some time. As for Kyle, I agree with **Fenris** that the character has some interesting possibilities that were left largely untapped through Marz’s run, which mostly was (as noted above) story after story which teased and failed to deliver on a return of Hal or of the Corps. The current writer (Judd Winnick, best-known for his stint on “The Real World”) has quickly established a better status quo (Jade has a ring again, and Alan is a part of the book on a semi-regular basis; it also looks like John Stewart may be getting his powers back as well), although I’d say he hasn’t written anything really gripping in the year or so he’s been on the title. –Cliffy P.S. Darkseid’s son who’s shown up in GL is named Grayven. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/23 "2001-11-26T15:51:12Z")
Somebody asked for a link. [This site](http://www.glcorps.org/book.html) is exhaustive. Not to mention exhausting. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/24 "2001-11-26T22:25:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I was always a fan of John Stewart (no relation). I was aghast at the political incorrectness of taking the most powerful weapon in the universe from a black guy (who was part of the mythos) and giving it to an unknown brick of a white guy. Maybe it’s just me but I always got the impression that Kyle was Latino. It’s been ages since I read a comic book so I have no idea if they’ve ever said one way or the other but the art always made me think so. But should John Stewart have a ring just because he’s black, if it doesn’t serve the story? > [@](#): > > I’m very happy about Stewart’s role in the TV JL series. I’m hoping the TV show’s popularity will result in Rayner dying heroically, tragically, and to my happiness, to be replaced by Stewart. Speaking of PC, it’s pretty obvious the only reason John Stewart is on the TV series is to keep the team from being lily-white (OK, lily-white and lily-pad green, counting J’onn). I realize that all the TV shows are independent of the book continuity, but I’d rather they stick with the actual current heroes instead of dredging up someone who’s currently not part of continuity for the sake of appearance. Are there no other currently-active black heroes who could have been used? Same gripe applies to Hawkgirl. She’s there only to keep Wonder Woman from being the token female on the team. I’d rather see Black Canary. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/25 "2001-11-26T22:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > **But should John Stewart have a ring just because he’s black, if it doesn’t serve the story?** Well, Stewart was created because O’Neill had a guilt-trip about a lack of black characters, but the character (especially under Englehart around the time of the Crisis …190 or so) really became an interesting, well balanced character in his own right, once the O’Neil “pissed off ghetto-talkin’ black street-punk” persona was lost. It was interesting to see a character who’d grown beyond the “Shaft” motif. > [@](#): > > Same gripe applies to Hawkgirl. She’s there only to keep Wonder Woman from being the token female on the team. I’d rather see Black Canary. \*\* I _could_ argue that Hawkgirl (Hawkwoman, dammit!) is there because her continuity/backstory has some small semblance of coherence, as opposed to Hawkman’s (in the books, at least) and that’s why they chose her. I’d be _wrong_ if I argued that, but I could. 😉 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/26 "2001-11-27T01:08:47Z")
There are no other established black characters in the DCU. There is Black Lightning, who aside from a recent cameo in the Our Worlds at War shambles, hasn’t been seen in a long time. There is Steel, who is virtually DC’s Iron Man but without the high profile, and who is part of the Superman series. And that is it. Over at Marvel there is Black Panther, Bishop, and Storm (one of Marvel’s most popular characters). I doubt that Kyle Rayner is Latino. Nothing I have read suggests so, other than he has black hair. ---
**Author:** ![Daniel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Daniel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daniel)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/27 "2001-11-27T01:11:57Z")
Also, Stewart is one of the Green Lanterns that wasn’t used in a previous TV series. They had Kyle in that animated Superman show with a passive mention of Hal (written on a plane Kyle was thrown at), and of course Hal was the GL in Superfriends. Since they seem dead-set on using Flash as comic relief (ugh . . . really they should have brought in PlasticMan, like the comics did, even though Plas used to have his own show back in the day . . .), that might have played into their decision to choose Stewart over Gardner. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/28 "2001-11-27T03:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > **There are no other established black characters in the DCU. There is Black Lightning, who aside from a recent cameo in the Our Worlds at War shambles, hasn’t been seen in a long time. There is Steel, who is virtually DC’s Iron Man but without the high profile, and who is part of the Superman series. And that is it. Over at Marvel there is Black Panther, Bishop, and Storm (one of Marvel’s most popular characters).** Both Black Lightning and Steel have had their own series, BL two of them. And Steel is a very big supporting character in the Superman books. So I think they both qualify as being established. And there are a couple of others around also. Like: [ul] [li] Vixen, own series, member of the JLA, member of Suicide Squad[/li][li] Cyborg, member of the Titans[/li][li] Hi Opal![/li][li] Joto, member of the Titans[/li][li] The Herald, _aka_ The Hornblower, The Guardian II, member of the Titans.[/li][li] Bumblebee, member of the Titans[/li][li] Hero, member of the Ravers[/li][li] Kid Quantum I, member of the LSH (deceased)[/li][li] Kid Quantum II, member of the LSH[/li][li] Tyroc, member of the LSH, retconned away[/li][li] XS, member of the LSH, descendant of Barry Allen[/li][li] Bronze Tiger[/li][li] Dr. Mist, leader of Global Guardians[/li][li] Mr. Terrific II, leader of JSA[/li][/ul] I admit that several of these are very minor characters, some were handled badly, and some are pretty much only used as supporting characters. And there have definitely not been enough black characters in the DC universe, but saying that there are no other established black characters is a mistake. And I am positive I missed one of them that was part of the Guardians, but I don’t know the newest members. Oh, and you missed Falcon and Triathlon of the Avengers over at Marvel. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/29 "2001-11-27T07:12:55Z")
I was saying that the DCU was devoid of black characters - just that there were no main ones. (And I hadn’t forgotten Falcon and Triathlon at Marvel, but they’re hardly main ones either.) With the exception of Cyborg (who is now a supporting character in the Flash’s series), none of those guys are recognisable to the average punter in the street. And look at how they’ve been treated by writers! This is a post from the DC JLA board, which is pretty much on target and sums up my view on these things: > [@](#): > > See, I never understood some people’s need to “relate” to their heroes. I relate to friends and relatives. I get vicarious kicks and fun adventures through super-heroes, no matter what color they are. Personally, I tend to like characters that reflect my beliefs and interests, whatever their color. > That said, I believe the black readers deserve some credit, because they pretty much have to be partially color blind to embrace this medium. If they tried to follow only black characters, they could own every issue of their solo titles, and keep them all in a couple or three longboxes. Ditto Hispanics, who could keep their solo heroes’ adventures in a three ring binder. Plus, I have so much sympathy for anyone who tries loyally following a black character… > > John Stewart: Angry black man runner-up to Guy Gardner, himself a runner-up to Hal Jordan. After sporadic appearances, takes over the Green Lantern lead for about six months. Then forced to share his book with a taking chipmunk and other space oddities. Loses powers. Wife murdered, and her killer is never brought to justice. Has power restored, only to irresponsibly get a planet blown up. Mentally controlled by evil Guardian. Mentally controlled by Sinestro. Mentally unbalanced. Tries to protect Mosaic world in little promoted, badly drawn solo series, cancelled to make way for Kyle Rayner. Loses Gl power, becomes a Darkstar. Watches as Darkstar Corps. is destroyed by a Kyle Rayner villain in Kyle’s book. Becomes crippled. Gets to walk again. Becomes crippled again. > > Cyborg: Popular member of New Teen Titans. Co-star in Super Powers cartoon. Gets an action figure. Receives realistic limbs to make him look and fee like a whole man again. Blown to pieces. Presumed dead. Lobotomized. Stuck in ugly armor. Becomes technological elemental(?!?!). Disappears from comics for half a decade. Returns in bid to destroy Earth and it’s moon. Becomes liquid metal elastic hero. Dumped for being another stupid elastic hero in a universe full of them. Recently appeared in some Flash comics. > > Black Lightning: Wears a afro wig-mask to hide identity. Powered by belt that gives him mild electrical powers. Series mercifully cancelled. Joins Batman and the Outsiders–while still wearing afro-wig and low cut v-neck shirt. Series cancelled. Gets super-powers during Invasion!, over ten years after his original creation, and with no place to showcase them. Gets new ongoing & costume. Series cancelled. Gets passed over in revival of The Outsiders. Gets awful new costume. Guest-stars in big JLA story, where he fails to save mankind in a very public way. Appears in Superman titles, and somehow absorbs a nuclear blast. Unseen since. > > Now these are not just second stringers. These are three of the four greatest black characters DC has ever produced. Imagine if these three men were the best comics representations of your race. And again, I’m not even bringing up El Diablo and Vibe, DC’s attempts at Latin super-heroes. > > I guess what I’m trying to say is people shouldn’t get too hung up on race, but they shouldn’t begrudge non-whites for wanting at least some quality heroes of color to be treated with care and respect, either. So, for these reasons, I’m glad that John Stewart is getting a shot on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/30 "2001-11-28T02:58:27Z")
Sheesh. Corporate storylines. Don’t you see why I abandoned the supers for the much more personal, coherent storylines in the indies, **Fenris**? Dan Clowes would never recast David Boring under editorial decree. No one will ever tell Jaime Hernandez to stop drawing Maggie so fat. What makes good comics? It’s all about the story and the characters, man, and you can’t find good ones in the supers anymore. Except in the ABC books, but there again, one man, one vision. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/31 "2001-11-28T07:48:34Z")
Yeah, Alan Moore’s ABC stuff is good. I’m enjoying Top 10. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/32 "2001-11-28T15:01:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\*What makes good comics? It’s all about the story and the characters, man, and you can’t find good ones in the supers anymore. \*\* Not true – you just have to look under the radar a bit. Currently one of my favorite books is DC’s **Harley Quinn** – it’s unpredictable, funny, touching, and at times really really sad. The somewhat recently cancelled **Hourman** was fantastic, too. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/33 "2001-11-28T21:04:03Z")
There was a comic in the 70’s called the Secret Society Of Super Villians. In it was a Star Sapphire who had a French accent and who was not Carol Ferris. As far as I know, her origin was never explained. Who was she and where the hell did she come from? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/34 "2001-11-28T21:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > What makes good comics? It’s all about the story and the characters, man, and you can’t find good ones in the supers anymore. Except in the ABC books, but there again, one man, one vision. Four words for ya: **Kurt Busiek’s Astro City** Now if only it could get back on a regular schedule… ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/35 "2001-11-29T03:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AtomicDog \* > \*\*There was a comic in the 70’s called the Secret Society Of Super Villians. In it was a Star Sapphire who had a French accent and who was not Carol Ferris. As far as I know, her origin was never explained. Who was she and where the hell did she come from? \*\* As far as I know she was never explained. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/36 "2001-11-29T05:43:44Z")
Fenris wrote: > [@](#): > > Anyway, in an abysmal 3-issue story arc, Hal goes insane and kills a bunch of the Green Lantern Corps (stealing their rings as he went, so he had about 20 rings), killing the Guardians, and breaking the central power battery in an effort to bring Coast City back from the dead. I think I remember reading this, in one of the rare instances of my adolescence when I read DC comics. (I read them on the newsstands, I didn’t actually buy them. 😛 ) I remember Hal Jordan getting in this ring-to-ring duel with a Green Lantern that looked like a big bouncy ball with stubby little arms and legs. Hal was making a **very** big deal out of the fact that the ring’s normal vulnerability to the color yellow was not, in fact, a “necessary” flaw, but had been used by the Guardians as a means of controlling the Green Lantern Corps. The Guardians had apparently “always” been capable of making a ring that worked just fine against yellow things, and in fact Hal apparently got his hands on a prototype of one of these “improved” rings. (You could tell the ring was special because it had a rectangular base, while a “normal” Green Lantern ring had a round base.) I don’t recall reading anything about reviving Coast City, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/37 "2001-11-29T06:08:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > **I was saying that the DCU was devoid of black characters - just that there were no main ones. (And I hadn’t forgotten Falcon and Triathlon at Marvel, but they’re hardly main ones either.)** We have different definitions of established. When I hear that, I think of someone who has been around for a few years, with a backstory and a history. You apparently mean someone that is recognizable by the public at large? > [@](#): > > **With the exception of Cyborg (who is now a supporting character in the Flash’s series), none of those guys are recognisable to the average punter in the street. And look at how they’ve been treated by writers!** When did Cyborg join the Flash cast? After issue #179? I haven’t seen him there up to that point. As for the list being recognisable to the average person on the street, John Steward doesn’t even meet that criteria. The average person would see him and say, “I thought the guy with the green ring was white.” Most people don’t know the history of the GLC, Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, or Kyle Rayner. Their only exposure is SuperFriends reruns and a rare story on the news. Most of the DC universe is unknown to the average person. > [@](#): > > **This is a post from the DC JLA board, which is pretty much on target and sums up my view on these things:** Aside from a few factual errors, the quote you posted made some good points. There certainly should be more heroes of different races and they should be handled better. And some of them are. Steel and his niece in the Superman books (Handled better than the last part of his book), and Mr. Terrific and J.J. Thunder in the JSA are all multi-dimensional with nice storylines. Things aren’t perfect, but they are improving. > [@](#): > > \*\*So, for these reasons, I’m glad that John Stewart is getting a shot on TV. \*\* I am not upset about that. It gets more of the character’s history out for more people to see and it increases the variations available for stories and plots. If only I was able to watch the show. ☹ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Four words for ya: Kurt Busiek’s Astro City > > Now if only it could get back on a regular schedule… \*\* Now that they have figured out what is wrong with Kurt and he is getting the proper treatment, it is starting to look like things will improve in that area. Lok ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/38 "2001-11-29T16:44:37Z")
Lok wrote: > [@](#): > > There certainly should be more heroes of different races and they should be handled better. They could always bring back Black Vulcan, Samurai, and Apache Chief. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/39 "2001-11-30T08:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Lok wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > There certainly should be more heroes of different races and they should be handled better. > > They could always bring back Black Vulcan, Samurai, and Apache Chief. :rolleyes: \*\* Apparently you missed the part where I said they should be handled better. 🙂 Lok ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885/40 "2001-12-05T01:57:16Z")
What, are you saying that **not all** Apache tribesmen can grow to 50 feet tall by saying “Inekchok!”? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-green-lantern-debate/94885.md?page=3)