# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2182 "2021-06-11T05:21:36Z")
To be clear, the Camel had a rotary (you say rotary at one point and radial at another), but yeah, nothing like a Wankel rotary. It’s probably most correct to refer to the Camel’s engine as a radial rotary. > **[Rotary engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The rotary engine is an early type of internal combustion engine, usually designed with an odd number of cylinders per row in a radial configuration. The engine's crankshaft remained stationary in operation, while the entire crankcase and its attached cylinders rotated around it as a unit. Its main application was in aviation, although it also saw use in a few early motorcycles and automobiles. > This type of engine was widely used as an alternativ... ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2183 "2021-06-11T14:17:59Z")
Yeah, I meant rotary. Efiting error. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2184 "2021-06-11T14:25:25Z")
What’s this on the wingtip of this U.S. Navy airplane?: [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury#/media/File:Navy-e6-070403-03cr-6.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury#/media/File:Navy-e6-070403-03cr-6.jpg) [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury#/media/File:E-6_Mercury_Tinker_AFB_Oct_28_2014.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury#/media/File:E-6_Mercury_Tinker_AFB_Oct_28_2014.jpg) From here: [Boeing E-6 Mercury - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2185 "2021-06-11T14:40:17Z")
The pointy forward facing probe-like things on the wingtips are almost certainly HF radio antennas. See also the top of the tail. The original 707 airliners configured for international operations had the same antenna on the tail. It was for the HF long range radios. See **[Google Pix](https://www.google.com/search?q=boeing+707&tbm=isch&hl=en)** for many period examples. You’ll also notice some 707s don’t have the antenna. Those were configured for over-land use only. The cigar-shaped tank-like things on the E-6 wingtips are almost certainly a combination of radio transmit/receive electronics and other antennas. You didn’t ask, but if you look at the ass end tip of the fuselage there’s a little cone shaped thing you don’t find on other similar airplanes. That is a weight and drogue on the end of a long wire antenna stored on a reel in the tailcone. For some transmissions they enter a continuous turn while reeling out about a mile(!) of wire. Eventually most of the wire settles into a more or less vertical orientation hanging in the center of the turn circle. Once stable, that can be used to transmit messages via VLF to submarines. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2186 "2021-06-11T14:56:56Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Eventually most of the wire settles into a more or less vertical orientation hanging in the center of the turn circle. Once stable, that can be used to transmit messages via VLF to submarines. My dad used that technique when one of two water skiers fell. Dad would start orbiting the downed skier, such that the handle on the rope was within his grasp. The other skier would lay out to the perimeter of the circle so that he had enough speed to remain on his ski. When the downed skier grabbed the handle and signalled, dad would straighten the course and the downed skier would be back on his ski. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2187 "2021-06-11T19:36:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > To be clear, the Camel had a rotary (you say rotary at one point and radial at another), but yeah, nothing like a Wankel rotary. Now I wonder if anyone has ever used a Wankel rotary engine in a a plane. IIRC their main advantages are small size and light weight compared to a traditional piston engine, which seems like it would make them ideal for aviation use. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2188 "2021-06-11T20:13:58Z")
> **[New four-chamber rotary engine could supplant Wankel and piston engines for...](https://www.sae.org/news/2018/09/new-four-chamber-rotary-engine-could-supplant-wankel-and-piston-engines-for-uav-applications)** > > A new configuration of a rotary engine – the Szorenyi rotary engine – has been developed by the Melbourne-based Rotary Engine Development Agency (REDA). While the stator, or stationary part of the Szorenyi engine is similar to that of a Wankel... [https://www.aviationpros.com/engines-components/aircraft-engines/piston-engines-parts/article/12318212/geiger-motor-gmbh-delivers-new-wankel-aviation-engines](https://www.aviationpros.com/engines-components/aircraft-engines/piston-engines-parts/article/12318212/geiger-motor-gmbh-delivers-new-wankel-aviation-engines) > **[Rotary (Wankel) - KITPLANES](https://www.kitplanes.com/2021-engine-buyers-guide-rotary-wankel/)** > > Engine Buyer’s Guide Index Introduction Flat Four-Stroke Gasoline Inline and V Four-Stroke Radial and Rotary Rotary (Wankel) Compression Ignition (Diesel & Jet A) Volkswagen Jets & Turboprops Corvair Two-Stroke Electric American Rotary Engine... ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2189 "2021-06-11T21:21:55Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The original 707 airliners configured for international operations had the same antenna on the tail. It was for the HF long range radios. See **[Google Pix](https://www.google.com/search?q=boeing+707&tbm=isch&hl=en)** for many period examples. You’ll also notice some 707s don’t have the antenna. Those were configured for over-land use only. Interesting! I had long noted that funny thing sticking out of the tail on the 707, and assumed they all had them (it’s clear from the pics that many did not). I had also assumed that it had some subtle aerodynamic purpose. Do you know why the DC-8 never had such an antenna? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2190 "2021-06-12T00:55:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Do you know why the DC-8 never had such an antenna? [Wingtips](https://www.airlineratings.com/wp-content/uploads/uploads/DC-8-First-Flight.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2191 "2021-06-12T03:26:18Z")
But AFAIK (and as I remember from having seen them in quantity and ridden them occasionally when they were in mainline US service and I was young) DC-8s in operational service did not have the cool wingtip probes @Magiver cites. Clearly the first flight of the DC8 prototype did. But I’m going to bet that was test instrumentation. Here’s a **[Google image search](https://www.google.com/search?q=dc-8&tbm=isch&hl=en)** in which we see lots of them painted in the colors of transoceanic airlines but all without wingtip probes / antennas. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Do you know why the DC-8 never had such an antenna? Overwater DC8s certainly had HF radios. Heck, brand new 787s and A350s have them. Most likely overland-only DC8s did not have HF radios. So same as 707s in that regard. On more modern airplanes the HF antenna is inside the vertical tail and is scarcely visible as a small dielectric patch. In the final livery it may or may not be painted so as to be invisible. In this **[pic from Google](https://images.app.goo.gl/WFuoR7PHPDQVBsDu8)** you see a not-yet painted brand new 737 MAX. The leading edge of the vertical tail is in that weird slightly iridescent green primer color. Within that leading edge section of green from about 25% of the way up the tail to 50% is a gray section that obscures most of the green. That gray is the HF antenna. Here’s another **[Google pic](https://images.app.goo.gl/x4tjHThRs3ytTgL89)** that shows a fully painted tail on an in-service 737 NG. At about 25% of the way up the leading edge you’ll see a small dark gray area just above the crossbars of the A’s of the company logo. That little gray area is the exposed part of the dielectric of the antenna. The rest of the antenna runs up the leading edge from there under the paint. So why did the 707 have that cool probe and others not? Beats the heck outta me. Given how cool it looked and that nobody else did it, I suspect that was marketing or some unsung enginerd’s idea of Rule of Cool. Or they had some real EMI problems and settled for that as the least bad way to solve them. HF radio is kinda flaky in airplanes; you’d like to have a reflective ground plane a few hundred feet in diameter below the antenna. That’s not gonna happen, so the RF wizards have to perform their magic incantations some other way. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2021, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2192 "2021-06-12T08:26:06Z")
the early days of HF radios were at the cutting edge of technology. the antenna was a shinny stick attached to the business end of the technology. Similarly, the original navigation systems in DC-8’s were expensive and lacking in accuracy in the best of circumstances. when GPS became available pilots would bring their hand-held units into the cockpit In what I would describe as an aviation form of Rogaine. They’d still have to program the system in the plane but in reality it was the handheld that got them to their destination. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2193 "2021-06-13T18:24:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The pointy forward facing probe-like things on the wingtips are almost certainly HF radio antennas. See also the top of the tail… Thanks for the explanation! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2194 "2021-06-16T01:38:01Z")
the more I look at the liquid piston rotary engine the more I hope it goes into production. If it does what it claims then a twin rotor motorcycle would be really something. Air cooled at a fraction of the weight of engines on the market today. And it would be great in a twin engine aircraft with both engines inline. The seals are in the block and not the rotor. Imagine seal ports that you could unscrew and swap the seals out while it’s mounted in the plane. you could have 500 hr TBO’s and nobody would care. It would be like changing spark plugs. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2195 "2021-06-20T01:14:14Z")
Talented guy: > **[When NASA makes news, he’s there to capture it](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/06/world/nasa-photographer-scn-cnnphotos/)** > > For the past 30 years, Bill Ingalls has had a front-row seat to some of NASA’s most historic moments. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2196 "2021-06-26T17:21:44Z")
[Hot Air balloon crash.](https://ktla.com/news/local-news/man-injured-after-jumping-out-of-airplane-at-lax/) Happened at 500 ft AGL and they hit power lines on the way down. What a horrible way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2197 "2021-07-01T00:31:21Z")
The flying car completes first ever inter-city flight: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/a2tDOYkFCYo/maxresdefault.jpg "The flying car completes first ever inter-city flight (Official Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2tDOYkFCYo) More of a gimmick than anything but, technically it is a flying car I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2198 "2021-07-01T13:19:08Z")
Good news for Lockheed Martin: > **[Neutral Switzerland plans to buy dozens of US F-35 fighter jets | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/30/europe/switzerland-f-35-fighters-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > Switzerland has chosen Lockheed Martin's F-35A Lightning II as its next-generation fighter jet, the government said on Wednesday, angering opponents who have pledged a new referendum to overturn what they dubbed an unnecessary "Ferrari" option. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2199 "2021-07-02T14:18:36Z")
Apparently a Boeing 737 cargo plane, built in 1975, had successfully ditched in the ocean off the southern coast of Oahu. Strangely, I’m not finding anything about it on any of the major news sites. It was briefly mentioned on the local news. Not-local article: > **[Boeing 737 cargo plane crashes off Hawaii](https://bnonews.com/index.php/2021/07/boeing-737-cargo-plane-crashes-off-hawaii/)** > > Two pilots have been seriously injured after a large cargo plane crashed into the ocean off Hawaii, local officials say. The crew had reported engine trouble and was trying to make an emergency landing when it ditched into the water. The accident... ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2200 "2021-07-02T14:42:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > . . . had successfully ditched in the ocean . . . Strangely, I’m not finding anything about it on any of the major news sites. If it doesn’t bleed, it doesn’t lead. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2201 "2021-07-02T14:44:20Z")
OK, now it’s on CNN. > **[A Boeing 737 cargo plane makes emergency landing in the water near Honolulu |...](https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/02/us/cargo-plane-down-hawaii/index.html)** > > The pilots of a cargo plane that made an emergency landing off the coast of Honolulu, Hawaii, early Friday morning told air traffic controllers one of their engines had failed moments before the flight went down, according to LiveATC recordings... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=111)