# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 117
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2322 "2021-09-03T02:19:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I completely missed that. I saw it right off. I was disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2323 "2021-09-03T17:18:20Z")
It would never occur to me that someone would even try that. I looked at the nose to see if it had the the nose turret and then the interior pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2324 "2021-09-03T17:32:25Z")
I’d seen it before. I didn’t know it was a one-off. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2325 "2021-09-04T22:32:46Z")
Change of subject. One of the Red Bull pilots just took off from inside a tunnel then flew through another tunnel. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNyRRHxc0W4) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2326 "2021-09-06T17:05:06Z")
Crazy and awesome. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2327 "2021-09-06T17:53:11Z")
I really can’t top that. So, what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2328 "2021-09-06T18:09:48Z")
Sure, fly through 2 empty tunnels as a sponsored stunt and you get paid for having fun. Fly under a bridge… It’s all in the prep work. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2329 "2021-09-07T04:07:36Z")
This ran on the news. They said there was 7 feet of space off of each wing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2330 "2021-09-07T15:18:53Z")
And for all you frequent fliers out there… > **[How this 'mileage maniac' earned 40 million frequent flier miles | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/mileage-maniac-steve-belkin-frequent-flier-miles/index.html)** > > Air miles expert Steve Belkin came up with extreme ways of exploiting Airline rewards programs, running elaborate schemes including hiring "clones" of himself. He's recounted his exploits in a new book, "Mileage Maniac." ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2331 "2021-09-07T16:10:54Z")
Why do some planes require two pilots? I understand it as a redundancy factor for commercial planes but for private planes (like the really nice, big private jets) why do they need two pilots? (you can even Google “largest single pilot jets” and get results such as [Largest-Cabin Single-Pilot Planes](https://blog.wepushtin.com/blog/largest-cabin-single-pilot-planes/)) It certainly seems any plane can be flown by one person without any problem (I’m betting a 747 can be flown by one person). So, unless you want a redundant pilot on board, is there any other reason to require a second pilot? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2332 "2021-09-07T16:25:00Z")
Just a guess, but I’d say its a safety factor because of pilot fatigue. I’ll bet that the planes that require two crew are the ones with the longest range. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2333 "2021-09-07T17:50:28Z")
Oh that’s an easy one. Someone has to hear you snore. Redundancy is of course part of it. but the other person isn’t just occupying space. It’s a shared workload. There’s a lot going on in a cockpit. Even in a small plane your concentration can be fully absorbed in keeping the plane on track. Having someone run the radio stack, monitor fuel, trim settings, etc… is no small matter. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2334 "2021-09-07T17:56:26Z")
Yeah, and the workload in jets is higher because the go faster and it’s harder to keep up. When you are puttering along in a Cessna 172 at 110 kts, you have lots of time to make decisions, go through checklists, etc. In a jet, stuff happens fast as you approach the airport, and having two people go through everything is much faster. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2335 "2021-09-07T18:11:36Z")
I thought below 10,000 feet the US has a 250 mph speed limit. And is there some reason a 747 must fly at 250 mph? Can’t it fly at 200 mph? Is that a whole lot worse than flying at 150 mph? Aren’t there single-pilot planes that will be doing 200-250 mph on approach (I mean in the landing pattern…not their speed at touchdown)? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2336 "2021-09-07T18:26:29Z")
Where it really comes into play is during approach or other time-sensitive procedures. Not only are the checklists and procedures longer in a big jet, but they approach the airport at 140-160 kts. A Cessna 172 approaches at more like 65-75 kts. So the jet is coming into the airport at roughly twice the speed of something like a Cessna. In a Cessna 172, the pre-landing checklist is maybe 6-7 simple items. You make sure your seatbelts are locked, landing lights on, gas is set to both tanks, mixture rich, In more complex single pilot planes you can add gear and constant-speed prop checks, and flap management for both if needed. In a 747 you can add to that autopilot checks, cabin announcements, interior lighting, autobrakes, speed brakes, and probably stuff I don’t know about because I don’t fly them. Also in large jets you have to account for ‘spool up time’ on the engines, so if you get behind the airplane it can wreck your day. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2337 "2021-09-08T05:56:15Z")
You have to look at the history. In the past, navigation was difficult, flying was fully manual, operating all of the aircraft systems was a big task on its own. Planes used to have a navigator, a flight engineer, a radio operator (in WW2 era), and two pilots to share the workload. As technology has advanced, the number of flight crew has dwindled as they get replaced by some sort of black box. At some point you get down to the minimum that is reasonable. Having two pilots is partly for redundancy, partly for sharing the workload, partly because when the shit hits the fan, you _need_ someone else there, you can’t do everything by yourself reliably. What you end up with though, are aircraft that are _designed_ to be flown by two crew. So the short answer is that modern airliners and large private aircraft require two crew because they are designed to be flown that way. They often carry more because long-haul jets can fly for longer than anyone can stay alert, so they carry relief crews. You can be sure that there is a great deal of discussion around going to single pilot aircraft. You run into a bit of an issue where two agendas compete though. On one hand there is concern about the odd pilot going rogue ala Germanwings, on the other hand there is a desire to save money by reducing the number of crew. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2338 "2021-09-08T13:04:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > You have to look at the history. In the past, navigation was difficult, flying was fully manual, operating all of the aircraft systems was a big task on its own. Planes used to have a navigator, a flight engineer, a radio operator (in WW2 era), and two pilots to share the workload. As technology has advanced, the number of flight crew has dwindled as they get replaced by some sort of black box. > > At some point you get down to the minimum that is reasonable. The flight crew will eventually be one person and one dog. The person’s job is to feed the dog. The dog’s job is to bite the person if they even try to touch the controls. Just thought I’d add that joke on the small chance that someone here hasn’t heard it already. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2339 "2021-09-08T14:27:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > on the other hand there is a desire to save money by reducing the number of crew. But really, how much is that out of total operating costs? I would think that there are much bigger factors that can be reduced/modified before crew cuts. Although several of those costs are beyond the control of the operators, I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2340 "2021-09-09T02:23:07Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But really, how much is that out of total operating costs? Enough that it is a line of investigation. I guess it’s not _just_ that it saves money. As automation gets better you start to question if there is any _need_ for a second pilot _if_ the automation is sufficiently advanced. And if there is no need for a second pilot then money spent on a second pilot is wasted. My own view is that if you need one pilot, you need two (in the context of passenger jets), because one pilot may become incapacitated in some way. If the aeroplane’s automation can safely cope with the loss of the sole pilot, then I don’t think that sole pilot was necessary in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/2341 "2021-09-09T15:58:04Z")
There are autoland systems now which work really well from what I have seen. The problem with them is they declare an emergency, ATC clears the airspace, and the plane lands. All well and good in an emergency but you can’t have every plane doing that. The automation has no way to cope with ATC giving various instructions to incoming planes. I think it will be a long, long time before we have automation at that level (I think you would need to automate ATC for starters…good luck with that). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=116) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=118)