# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 167
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3323 "2023-01-09T15:11:23Z")
> [@cincinnatus](#): > > What aircraft is used for this video tour? Would this be the way all big jets appear? Looks like an Airbus, and no, not all jets will look like that. The Airbus has some design elements that aren’t common, such as the side sticks. But the large glass displays are common now. > [@cincinnatus](#): > > The big question to me: Does crew know, in their head, where everything is? How long does it take to solidly learn these switches, displays and panels without referring to some kind of helper screen? Do pilots have a method, or mnemonic-type helper, to direct their attention in various emergencies. The training is very good, and involves a fair amount of preparation. Before going to class you’ve memorized a lot of stuff, including “flows”, which are common actions you’ll take with the controls. Example: In the bizjet I currently fly our “after takeoff flow” for the non-flying pilot is… Flaps retract Activate yaw damper Main air valves open APU off Set climb power That’s all followed up later with a checklist. In some planes that checklist will be on one of the screens. I’ve used mneumonics to help memorize, flash cards, etc. > [@cincinnatus](#): > > Let’s say this is an Airbus and you know it well. For some reason, you change to Boeing equipment. How long does it take to learn the new layout? And I presume you cannot actually fly until you reach some point of familiarity. And then can you get in and turn the key and fly either at will in the future? Going to a new aircraft type is starting at the beginning again, unless they are related types. Again, you prepare before going to class / simulator. Every time I’ve gotten a new type rating the aircraft feels very unfamiliar for the first few days in the sim, then it becomes familiar. Eventually it becomes a cozy nest over time. For me, once I’m finished with one plane and getting trained on another, I dump all my previous knowledge. If you asked me for details of jets I’ve flown before, I probably couldn’t tell you. There’s only so much room in my noggin. In the corporate world there are pilots who maintain currency in two planes at a time, but I’ve never done that. Not eager too, either. Edit: I’ll add that when I did my first type rating in a large turboprop for a regional airline, I was struck by the idea that the first time I would fly the actual airplane would be on a revenue trip with passengers. Still seems sort of crazy to me, but it’s an established system that works well. That first type rating was a big hurdle for me, but each subsequent has been much easier. ---
**Author:** ![cincinnatus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cincinnatus/32/7990_2.png) [@cincinnatus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cincinnatus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3324 "2023-01-09T20:48:03Z")
Thanks, folks. Exactly what I wanted to know. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3325 "2023-01-09T21:38:39Z")
Questions about starting a turbine without FADEC: I heli-ski every year and the craft is a Bell 205. It’s very modernized with a glass cockpit. However, it sounds like starting it is VERY tricky. I’ve been told that if you don’t do it just right it will fry the turbine. Why is this? The owner of the operation has his rotary wing license and can fly the 205, but says he can’t start it. [![](https://i.imgur.com/ad2Oni8.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/ad2Oni8.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3326 "2023-01-09T22:02:34Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Questions about starting a turbine without FADEC: I heli-ski every year and the craft is a Bell 205. It’s very modernized with a glass cockpit. However, it sounds like starting it is VERY tricky. I’ve been told that if you don’t do it just right it will fry the turbine. Why is this? I don’t know anything about helicopters, but jet engines are very temperature sensitive. With FADEC it’s mostly automated, at least in the jets I’ve flown, though it’s still possible to get a hot or hung start. But I’ve flown a few vintage jets, such as a T-33, and on startup you watched the jet pipe temperature like a hawk. Then there was this bad boy: [Fouga Magister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouga_CM.170_Magister) It’s been a long time, but as I remember it the engine start procedure was multiple steps that had to be done correctly and within temp limits. Screw it up and you could dump fuel on the tarmac and ignite it. Mr. LSL will have more detail, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3327 "2023-01-09T22:44:59Z")
Here’s a the engine start checklist I found for the Bell 205: **ENGINE STARTING** MAIN ROTOR NOTE POSITION AND CLEAR COLLECTIVE FULL DOWN THROTTLE CHECK TO IDLE THEN OFF START TIMER (45 SEC STARTER LIMIT) STARTER BUTTON PRESS AND HOLD ENGINE OIL PRESSURE RISING TOT ENSURE \<150 DEGREES AT 15% N1, OPEN THROTTLE TO IDLE TOT 810-927 MAX 10 SECONDS ROTOR TURNING BY 25% N1 STARTER RELEASE AT 58% N1 ENGINE & TRANSMISSION PRESSURES CHECK IDLE FOR 1 MINUTE AFTER RELEASING STARTER AFTER 1 MINUTE, OPEN THROTTLE TO 70% N1 GENERATOR ON RADIOS ON (MONITOR DC LOAD) \*AIR CONDITIONER / HEATER ON IF DESIRED (MONITOR DC LOAD) PRE-HYDRAULIC CHECK OFF, FEEL FOR MOTORING, THEN ON Please note that my helicopter experience is with pistons only. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3328 "2023-01-09T23:11:21Z")
Can you translate TOT and N1? Crazy that it’s so complicated when it needed to be done in a combat situation. Heli-skiing it’s at least 8-10 times a day. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3329 "2023-01-09T23:27:18Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Looks like an Airbus, and no, not all jets will look like that. The Airbus has some design elements that aren’t common, such as the side sticks. But the large glass displays are common now. I’m not sure what it is. The side sticks would indicate an Airbus but it’s a smaller flight deck than an A320 which has two jump seats so that rules out the larger Airbuses. The instruments are nothing like an A320. Perhaps an A220? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3330 "2023-01-09T23:34:27Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Can you translate TOT and N1? [Turbine Outlet Temperature](https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/exhaust-gas-temperature-egt) > In a turbine engine, Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT), sometimes referred to as Turbine Outlet Temperature (TOT), is the temperature of the turbine exhaust gases as they leave the turbine unit. [N1](https://airplaneacademy.com/what-are-n1-and-n2-in-aviation-turbine-engines/) > N1 and N2 express the rotational speed of turbine engines as a percentage of the maximum normal operating RPM. N1 is the speed of the low pressure spool and serves as the primary power setting, and N2 is the speed of the high pressure spool which indicates if aircraft systems have sufficient power. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3331 "2023-01-09T23:37:51Z")
It’s certainly more complicated than the paper airplane I just made. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3332 "2023-01-09T23:50:49Z")
Was it a tubular paper airplane? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3333 "2023-01-09T23:52:11Z")
I used to make these: [![](https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/edu/images/activities/ringwing.jpg) ](https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/edu/images/activities/ringwing.jpg) They fly well. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3334 "2023-01-10T00:01:19Z")
That has to be a BURLY starter. ---
**Author:** ![Ferris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferris/32/11573_2.png) [@Ferris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3335 "2023-01-10T00:16:14Z")
I’ve only recently discovered the FlightRadar24 app, which has been a lot of fun. Mainly for identifying any helicopters overhead, but occasionally I ‘browse’ the globe and find fun stuff. Whenever a flight’s labelled ?-? (indicating that neither origin nor destination airport is known), that intrigues me. So today I stumbled on FORTE10, a Northrop-Grumman RQ-4B Global Hawk circling at over 56,000ft in the skies above the Black Sea. Seems to be one of the highest-flying planes currently in the sky - as I discovered from the handy altitude filter. Evidently taking meteorological measurements, and likely took off from the Sigonella Naval Air Station in Southern Italy. Any other ‘cool’ and unusual aircraft out there that people track? And does anyone know whether older planes would show up on this app at all? I’m thinking of airshows, which could be fascinating to ‘view’, but suspect that the answer would sadly be ‘no’. ---
**Author:** ![cincinnatus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cincinnatus/32/7990_2.png) [@cincinnatus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cincinnatus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3336 "2023-01-10T01:19:36Z")
@Ferris For complete tracking go to [ADSB exchange](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/). Everything is tracked including military craft that identify. The site tracks where flights originated, but not their destination. That is an admitted pain, both origination and destination. I left-click on the upper left flight number and have my browser look it up. There are a boatload of filters. Study the set features for a while and you may find it useful. I did, and then sent them money for a membership, or whatever it’s called. I also subscribe to Flightradar24, but I am a freak that way. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3337 "2023-01-10T01:31:15Z")
> [@Ferris](#): > > I’ve only recently discovered the FlightRadar24 app, which has been a lot of fun. Mainly for identifying any helicopters overhead, but occasionally I ‘browse’ the globe and find fun stuff. I use FlightAware, which does pretty much the same thing as FlightRadar24. Whenever I hear a plane fly over my house I like to pull up the app and see what flight that was and where it’s going. I’ve done it enough that I can sometimes guess what flight it is before I even check. Like I’ll hear a plane fly over at around 10:30 pm as I’m getting ready for bed, and I think “I bet that’s the AA redeye to CLT”. > [@Ferris](#): > > So today I stumbled on FORTE10, a Northrop-Grumman RQ-4B Global Hawk circling at over 56,000ft in the skies above the Black Sea. I’m surprised that showed up on the app. The Global Hawk is an unmanned surveillance drone, pretty much the unmanned equivalent of a U2. For reasons that should be obvious, military flights generally don’t show up on flight tracking apps. But I guess if it was being used for a civilian purpose it might show up. > [@Ferris](#): > > Any other ‘cool’ and unusual aircraft out there that people track? Boeing sometimes does test flights from Mather Field (formerly Mather AFB) near Sacramento. My house happens to be right under the approach, about 10 miles from the airport. Back when the 787 and 747-8 were undergoing test flights I set up an alert in FlightAware to notify me any time one of those planes was inbound to MHR. So I got to go outside and watch them fly overhead from my backyard. > [@Ferris](#): > > And does anyone know whether older planes would show up on this app at all? I’m pretty sure if it has a transponder it will show up. I once hear a plane that just sounded “old” (it had that distinctive piston engine sound) fly overhead and looked it up in FlightAware. It turned out to be a DC-3, I’m guessing heading to an air show. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3338 "2023-01-10T01:36:36Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I once hear a plane that just sounded “old” FWIW, most of the General Aviation fleet was built in the 1960s and 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3339 "2023-01-10T01:46:28Z")
True, but a DC-3 doesn’t really sound like a Cessna 150. “Sounded like an old piston engine airliner, or WWII era bomber” might have been a more accurate description. ---
**Author:** ![Ferris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferris/32/11573_2.png) [@Ferris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3340 "2023-01-10T01:57:35Z")
Just found another high-altitude military flight (no callsign on the app) that must have come out of Jacksonville - a MQ-4C Triton at around 47,000ft. I’ll have to check out the other app/website to compare, I guess. Now I’ll have to remember to check the app when there’s a big airshow - possibly the Stars & Stripes Air Show Spectacular in Laredo, TX on Feb 26, or the Australian Airshow Mar 2-5. ---
**Author:** ![Ferris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferris/32/11573_2.png) [@Ferris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3341 "2023-01-10T02:15:24Z")
Thanks for that ADSB link - demonstrates that the police helicopter currently buzzing around shows up, while my FlightRadar24 app ignores it. Trying to use it on my phone is a bit of a challenge. I’ll have to play around with all the filters on the laptop. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3342 "2023-01-10T02:17:33Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > True, but a DC-3 doesn’t really sound like a Cessna 150. Yeah, you can definitely tell the difference when one of those big WWII radials or V-12s are going over vs pretty much any common GA engine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=166) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=168)