# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 189
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3763 "2023-03-10T01:37:33Z")
You take your luggage and throw it on the ground behind the flaps so you have something soft to land on. I thought everybody knew that. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3764 "2023-03-10T13:24:58Z")
Here’s some more unlucky folks: > **[NTSB officials release new details on what led to Winter Haven plane crash...](https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/03/09/ntsb-officials-release-new-details-on-what-led-up-to-winter-haven-plane-crash-that-killed-4/)** > > A National Transportation Safety Board investigator said Thursday officials recovered both of the planes involved in the mid-air Winter Haven crash that killed four people, including a 19-year-old student pilot. and [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2C9WLpudY_U/maxresdefault.jpg "Winter Haven FL. Mid Air Collision 8 March 2023") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9WLpudY_U) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3765 "2023-03-11T01:24:06Z")
I never understood why someone wouldn’t carry a handheld radio. It’s such a major safety item. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3766 "2023-03-11T01:40:30Z")
More apropos is why, in this day and age, you’re allowed to fly an aircraft _without a radio_. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3767 "2023-03-11T02:21:12Z")
That’s a good question but the plane in question muddies the water further because it’s in the light sport category. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3768 "2023-03-11T02:38:53Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > **Breaking News! Reno Air Races to Sunset after this year!** > > Just heard this on the local news… After over 60 years, they are packing it up. Unclear if it’s moving or over. Bummer! This event has always been part of my life. Went with my dad as a kid, took my kid for many years and lately been going out with my Dog Crew. Had a ‘private spot’ I’ve been hitting for over 20 years running. Always enjoyed the Unlimited Class. I’ll miss going… Here’s the sanctioning organization’s website: > **[National Championship Air Races](https://airrace.org/)** > > The Reno Air Racing Association has been organizing the National Championship Air Races for over 60 years. The short story is too many buildings filling in under the course and now the airport authority pulled their plug. They “hope” to move elsewhere rather than die. My bet is that’s going to be a tough hill to climb. I can think of a bunch of airports in various rural Nowheresvilles around the USA where the race could be held. Shame that no spectators could practically get to any of them. Being from SoCal I never went to Reno but I did attend the rival air races in Mojave that ran most of the 1970s before they folded. > **[Mojave Air and Space Port | Air racing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Air_and_Space_Port#Air_racing)** > > The airport has a rich history in air racing. In 1970, a 1,000-mile (1,600 km) Unlimited race was held—the first closed-course pylon race to include pit stops. The race was notable in that it featured a DC-7 that flew non-stop and finished sixth out of twenty aircraft. The race was won by Sherm Cooper in a highly modified Hawker Sea Fury which also flew non-stop. The following year the race was shortened to 1,000 kilometres (620 mi), and was again won by a Hawker Sea Fury, this time flown by In ... Watched a man get killed there one year, which is always a risk at those kinds of events. > **[F8F-2 Crash at Mojave Air Races, Oct 1973](https://wreckchasing.websitetoolbox.com/post/f8f2-crash-at-mojave-air-races-oct-1973-4791045)** > > F8F-2 Crash at Mojave Air Races in Oct 1973. I was a spectator at the air races and saw the F8F-2 seemingly dive at around 45 degrees into the ground from about 1,000 feet or so above ground. There was a large black column of smoke visible from the... A bit of Googling suggests that Mojave is on the short list of substitute airports when Reno Stead is done after this year. At least Mojave, being close to Los Angeles, has a decent source for local spectators and is easy to get to for hardcore fans coming from afar. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3769 "2023-03-11T02:40:59Z")
I have a T-shirt that I got from the '79 Mojave Air Races. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3770 "2023-03-11T02:45:16Z")
I also attended both the California 500 IndyCar races at the short-lived Ontario Motor Speedway > **[Ontario Motor Speedway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Motor_Speedway)** > > Ontario Motor Speedway was a motorsport venue located in Ontario, California. It was the first and only automobile racing facility built to accommodate major races sanctioned by all of the four dominant racing sanctioning bodies: USAC (and now IndyCar Series) for open-wheel oval car races; NASCAR for a 500-mile (800 km) oval stock car races; NHRA for drag races; and FIA for Formula One road course races. Additionally, several motorcycle races were held at the track. Constructed in less than two y... 1970’s L.A. was Mecca for air-, water-, and land-based gearheads. But somehow they had a hard time running profitable motorsports events. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3771 "2023-03-11T02:55:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s a good question but the plane in question muddies the water further because it’s in the light sport category. And I guess this is part of my confusion…does it leave the ground and carry humans? It should have, at an absolute fucking minimum, a radio capable of contacting other aircraft and ATC - even balloons and gliders. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3772 "2023-03-11T03:01:20Z")
I used to fly a few Tiger Moths. They historically don’t have an electrical system at all aside from magnetos that deliver a spark to the engine. Starting is by hand-swinging the prop. Despite this, we had battery powered radios fitted to all of them. About 25 years later I flew a friend’s Tiger Moth that didn’t have a radio and I really wasn’t comfortable with it. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3773 "2023-03-11T13:21:30Z")
The end of another fleet. The last “real” operator of the last of the > **[British Aerospace ATP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_ATP)** > > The British Aerospace ATP (Advanced Turbo-Prop) is an airliner designed and produced by British Aerospace. It was an evolution of the Hawker Siddeley HS 748, a fairly successful feederliner of the 1960s. > The ATP was developed during the 1980s, events such as such as the 1979 oil crisis and increasing public concern regarding aircraft noise led to business planners at British Aerospace to believe that there was a market for a short-range, low-noise, fuel-efficient turboprop aircraft. First flo... has parked their fleet which is to be sold. While it’s not out of the question some that somebody even farther down the aviation food chain puts a couple of the survivors into service for awhile, the most likely outcome is that all these planes are scrapped. See also for more speculation on the surviving fleet: > **[West Atlantic Ends BAe ATP Flights - Airport Spotting](https://www.airportspotting.com/west-atlantic-ends-bae-atp-flights/)** > > The last remaining European operator of the British Aerospace ATP turboprop airliner retired the type… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3774 "2023-03-11T13:38:03Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And I guess this is part of my confusion…does it leave the ground and carry humans? It should have, at an absolute fucking minimum, a radio capable of contacting other aircraft and ATC - even balloons and gliders. I am confused at your confusion. There are no regulatory mandates for radios in aircraft. Over the decades many areas of airspace and airports have been closed to aircraft lacking radios, transponders, ADS-B, etc. So aircraft wanting to use that airspace must be appropriately equipped. But the remaining airspace and airports are free for anyone to use any time any way without talking to anyone anytime. Which, IMO is an essential freedom. Aviation is not _only_ about commerce and basic transportation. It’s also about the simple pleasure of flying to and fro, watching the beautiful world go by. Just as recreational boats are free to wander the lakes, rivers, and seas free from oversight or management. Nor a radios some sort of magic accident deflector. If you have airplanes freely wandering the sky, how and why would they know to talk to each other? And on which frequencies where? And how would they know which to use? Even in big jets in fully ATC-managed airspace, if I run into another aircraft that’s totally on me; ATC might be blamed by the public, or might even be the NTSB-determined primary cause. But ultimately it is on the pilots of the two aircraft to “see-and-avoid” as the regulations have it. By definition, if you hit something, it’s your fault. My comments above about “wandering freely” ae mostly applicable to enroute operations. But even then there are standard altitudes designed to maximize the opportunity for two freely wandering aircraft on happenstance converging courses to either see each other, or be deconflicted by altitude. In proximity to any airport, even an uncontrolled airport, there are also standards about how to maneuver relative to the runway. Which intend to “comb the choas” into a self-organizing mostly-orderly flow around the airport and runway(s) which also maximizes each pilots’ opportunity to see the other nearby aircraft. Heck, there are many airports served daily by RJs, and (late at night) by Boeings & 'Buses that have no radio control and expose the crews to the absolute requirement to see and avoid any/all maneuvering lightplanes that may or may not be radio equipped. While the lightplane pilots have the responsibility to see and avoid the onrushing jets. It works. It works every day in lots of places. Like anything in human endeavors, occasionally it doesn’t. As long as “occasionally” is occasionally-enough we need to be careful to avoid kneejerk reactions that throw babies out with bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3775 "2023-03-17T15:00:49Z")
Another runway incursion: here is the NTBS report on the Sarasota, Florida incident on February 16: > On February 16, 2023, about 2059 eastern standard time, Air Canada Rouge flight 1633 (ROU1633), an Airbus 321-200, registration C-GKFB, was cleared to take-off on runway 14 at Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport (SRQ), Sarasota, Florida, and American Airlines flight 2172 (AAL2172), a Boeing 737-800, registration N826NN, was cleared to land on the same runway. AAL2172’s crew self-initiated a go-around. Of the 2 pilots, 4 flight attendants, and 188 passengers on board ROU1633, and the 2 pilots, 4 flight attendants, and 172 passengers aboard AAL2172, there were no injuries. There was no damage to either airplane. [https://t.co/VkdwbDFOYh](https://t.co/VkdwbDFOYh) That’s 372 people in total. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3776 "2023-03-17T16:38:36Z")
Not sure that’s quite an “incursion”. But a conflict of some sort nevertheless. This article > **[Two planes had near-miss at Sarasota Bradenton Airport; incident being...](https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/local/2023/03/07/sarasota-bradenton-airport-two-plane-near-miss-under-investigation-srq/69981193007/)** > > A plane landing and one taking off at SRQ airport last month were both cleared to use the same runway. suggests the closest together they got was 1/2 mile fore/aft spacing. Which the article suggests, and I concur, seems like maybe possibly the landing aircraft over-reacted to what was actually adequate spacing. Better to be safe than sorry, but sometimes in avoiding one issue you trigger another. OTOH if the landing airplane was just about to pass the runway threshold and meanwhile the aircraft taking off is still on the ground half a mile away near the far end of the runway, that’s a mandatory go-around. Runways are one-plane-at-a-time only, period. Viewed in isolation, the fact the NTSB has chosen to look into this event implies the latter situation, not the former. Then again, with all the two-jets-one-runway events occurring recently in a cluster, they’d be remiss in not adding this one to their systemic root-cause analysis even if this was entirely an overreaction to an actually benign situation. Another thought: 737s fly final about 20-30 knots faster than most other jets from RJs to widebodies. It’s not like that should be a surprise to anyone; they’ve been doing that for 50 years now. But every now and then we encounter a situation where on approach ATC puts us close behind somebody we have no hope of keeping spacing on; we’re absolutely committed to flying faster than they will be and therefore we’ll be eating up the space in between. If we/they don’t start out with some room to spare, it’ll all be gone before we get to the runway. So evidently at least some controllers at least some times are surprised by a 737 moving faster than their own sense of cadence expects. Punchline: Was this a 737 flying unusually fast unusually late in the approach? An Airbus dawdling before getting moving on takeoff? A controller a bit overeager to fit things together tighter than was possible / reasonable? Or some of all three? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3777 "2023-03-18T02:21:45Z")
> **[Pilot nails daring landing on Dubai's Burj Al-Arab](https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-nails-daring-landing-dubais-061918852.html)** > > STORY: Air Racing champion Luke Czepiela became the first person to land a winged aircraft on Dubai's iconic Burj Al-Arab helipad on Tuesday (March 14).The 39-year-old Polish pilot succeeded in landing his small aircraft without visual cues to guide... The aircraft is a [Carbon Cub](https://cubcrafters.com/carboncub). > **[Witness Captures Emergency Plane Landing on Long Island Beach](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/witness-captures-emergency-plane-landing-on-long-island-beach/4160902/)** > > Two men walked away seemingly unscathed after crash landing a small plane onto a Long Island beach, and the entire harrowing touchdown was caught on camera. The Federal Aviation Administration confirmed a single-engine Beechcraft V35 conducted an... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3778 "2023-03-18T02:43:39Z")
I am always amazed at the capability of the ultra-STOL airplanes. Youtube is full of vids of their competitions that are just crazy to watch. For sure this guy had the difficulty cranked to up to 11 by doing it onto that platform with wild winds, perspective difficulties, etc. Here’s a pretty good vid on the whole prep & backstory which also includes at least clips taken from the takeoff which is more spectacular to watch, if less skill-required to perform. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Cdq0WjPO_0w/maxresdefault.jpg "Landing Red Bull Plane on a Helipad") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdq0WjPO_0w) That Bonanza had an awful lot of descent rate there at the end. I’m surprised that ended as well as it did. I wonder if the available landing distance along that beach was a lot shorter than it appears to us and the pilot essentially stuffed it into the ground to avoid overshooting the limited area. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3779 "2023-03-18T02:47:58Z")
You think a gear-up landing would have been a better choice? Turned out ok, but it seems to me the gear catching in the sand didn’t do them any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3780 "2023-03-18T02:50:27Z")
Why didn’t they get a tow truck to pull it away from the upcoming tide? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3781 "2023-03-18T02:53:38Z")
Never put the gear down for a forced landing in water or sand or even soft muddy surfaces. Further, whatever your glide ratio is gear-up, it sucks a lot more gear down. Which in turn sets up for a square corner at touchdown and unsurvivable descent rates, flip-overs, etc. That was dumb. Or was a gar malfunction. Not knowing how exactly they got into the predicament of needing a forced landing, it’s hard to say much more. Still, considering how much of that surrounding 50 miles is either open water or dense suburbia, they get an A+ in finding a landable location and landing in it in one piece. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/3782 "2023-03-18T03:01:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why didn’t they get a tow truck to pull it away from the upcoming tide? In both the cellphone vid as it happened and in the TV reporter vid taken later the plane is sitting in about the same couple feet of water. I don’t think the tide is much of an issue. Tides may become an issue a couple hours later but we have no idea what happened meanwhile. Maybe it was towed out somehow. I just checked and the tidal range there is about 4 feet from low to high: > **[Tide Predictions - NOAA Tides & Currents](https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/noaatidepredictions.html?id=8516881)** > > provides measured tide prediction data in chart and table So it’d be desirable to get the airplane out of the salt water sooner rather than later. Although FAA / NTSB may want to look at the aftermath _in situ_ before it’s allowed to be moved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=188) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=190)