# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 223
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4443 "2023-09-06T03:58:12Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I wonder what the fixed cost of ownership of that thing is? > **[Cessna 172 Skyhawk Cost To Own & Operate | SkyTough](https://www.skytough.com/post/cessna-172-skyhawk-cost-to-own-operate)** > > The most popular airplane in the world among private pilots and enthusiasts is the Cessna 172 Skyhawk. Here’s how much it costs to own and operate. > A Cessna 172 Skyhawk costs around $40,000 - $50,000 used or $400,000 to buy new. Besides the price, fixed costs total about $800 to $5,000 per year for insurance, hangar fees, and regular maintenance. Variable costs, like fuel and engine overhauls, cost roughly $50 to $60 per hour of flight time. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I need a 172 like I need, well, a 172. Might be fun. The 172 Skyhawk is the perfect compromise. As you well know, all aircraft are compromises. The Skyhawk doesn’t do anything especially well, but it does everything well enough. 130 smph cruise? Not great, but not bad. Payload to carry three adults and full tanks? It would be nice to fill all of the seats and have full tanks, but how often do you fill the seats? And sure it’s more expensive than a 150/152; but it’s more capable than those, and less expensive to buy, own, and operate than a Skylane. There’s a reason why more Skyhawks have been built than any other aircraft, ever. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Would be expensive even if it is free. And there’s the rub. Winning a prize counts as income. There’s currently one 1964 Skyhawk on controller[dot]com. It’s $105,000. Assuming the raffle aircraft has a similar stated value, there’s [estimating] $30,000 in taxes that the winner will owe. Plus the fixed and variable costs of ownership. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4444 "2023-09-06T05:10:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The operating costs are pretty simple. Take your disposable income and multiply it by 2. I thought that formula was for boat ownership! 😃 Regards, A former boat owner ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4445 "2023-09-06T08:31:48Z")
If you really want to burn money there are amphibious aircraft/seaplanes… combine the financial costs of a boat and an airplane in one vehicle! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4446 "2023-09-06T12:20:45Z")
There are 3 things you should always rent. Somebody please remind me why I got married again? Seriously though … Thanks for the hard numbers. My Dad used to rent out our 172s for $15/hr wet. And they were later models than the one being raffled. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4447 "2023-09-06T14:00:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My Dad used to rent out our 172s for $15/hr wet. 😲 When I learned to fly in the early-to-mid-'80s, my dad rented me his 1970, 172K for $35/hour wet. That included the maintenance/insurance/etc. I think the FBO he leased it back to charged $55/hour. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4448 "2023-09-06T17:07:18Z")
This was back around 1969. The several years of high inflation rates had just started. The price did not stay $15 for long. But I’m gobsmacked at cites of $190/hr. I knew it was lots higher than “just” 50 years of CPI inflation. But wow. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4449 "2023-09-06T17:16:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But I’m gobsmacked at cites of $190/hr. I knew it was lots higher than “just” 50 years of CPI inflation. But wow. I just checked the last place I rented several years ago. You can become a member of the club and get a discount. If you’re not a member, the rates are $184 to $189 (mostly Skyhawks, one Cherokee) per hour. Instructors are $72/hour. _ **BUT…** _ I just checked the website for an [FBO at BLI](http://www.bli-jet.com/flight-school), and they have three Skyhawks (two 16 hp, and one 180 hp) for $135/hour – which is more in line with what I expected. I called them before typing this, to confirm the prices are current. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4450 "2023-09-06T20:12:49Z")
I’ve always liked the look of the [‘swept-tail fastback’ Skyhawks](https://www.hangar67.com/photos/27953/b876265120.jpg), but I like things on modern Skyhawks too. Suppose I was Too Rich To Care. Could I replace the wings with ones that have electrically-operated flaps (and also add the conical-section wingtips), add a fillet to the tail extension, replace the seats with fully-articulated seats (I don’t know if the 172C had them), replace the spring-steel landing gear with tubular legs (and also replace the nose gear, because the original just seems to hang down too much in flight), put in a 172S glass panel, and swap in a 180 hp Lycoming and cruise-pitch prop? Obviously it can be done if the aircraft were registered in the Experimental category; but could all of those mods be done and still have the aircraft in the Utility category? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4451 "2023-09-06T21:05:17Z")
Damnit. All this cost figuring had me go check on the current status of the local club. Besides the 172 and the Cherokee 6 I remember, they now have an RV-9 and a Grumman Tiger. Rates are not bad (for the area especially - the 172 is $150/hr wet, tach time not Hobbs) and availability seems good. I didn’t need to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4452 "2023-09-06T21:45:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve always liked the look of the [‘straight-tail fastback’ Skyhawks](https://www.hangar67.com/photos/27953/b876265120.jpg), but I like things on modern Skyhawks too. Dammit. I meant _ **swept** _-tail fastbacks. I’ll ask for a mod correction. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4453 "2023-09-06T21:52:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Obviously it can be done if the aircraft were registered in the Experimental category; but could all of those mods be done and still have the aircraft in the Utility category? IANA expert on GA mods. Last time I laid eyes on a Form 337 I was about 30. But I’m going to suggest the answer probably depends a lot on the FSDO/GADO your mod shop is working with. The regs on mods aren’t that precise, so it’ll be up to the discretion of the Fed who signs off on revised certificate. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4454 "2023-09-06T22:07:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Dammit. I meant _ **swept** _-tail fastbacks. I’ll ask for a mod correction. Fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4455 "2023-09-06T22:13:22Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Fixed. Thanks! > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’m going to suggest the answer probably depends a lot on the FSDO/GADO your mod shop is working with. The regs on mods aren’t that precise, so it’ll be up to the discretion of the Fed who signs off on revised certificate. I’ll remember that and check it out after I become Too Rich To Care. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4456 "2023-09-06T22:14:58Z")
When you’re Too Rich to Care, just buy a new 172. Or better yet, a new > **[SOCATA TBM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOCATA_TBM)** > > The SOCATA TBM (now Daher TBM) is a family of high-performance single-engine turboprop business and utility light aircraft manufactured by Daher. It was originally collaboratively developed between the American Mooney Airplane Company and French light aircraft manufacturer SOCATA. > The design of the TBM family originates from the Mooney 301, a comparatively low-powered and smaller prototype Mooney developed in the early 1980s. Following Mooney's acquisition by French owners, Mooney and SOCATA ... I’d like one of those and one of these: > **[Extra EA-300](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_EA-300)** > > The Extra Flugzeugbau EA300 is a two-seat aerobatic monoplane capable of Unlimited category competition. It was designed in 1987 by Walter Extra, a German aerobatic pilot, and built by Extra Flugzeugbau. > Design of the Extra 300 was based on the Extra 230, an early 1980s monoplane having a wing made of wood. The Extra 300 has a welded steel tube fuselage covered in aluminium and fabric. The midset wing has a carbon fiber composite spar and carbon composite skins. A symmetrical airfoil, mounted... ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4457 "2023-09-06T22:25:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Could I replace the wings with ones that have electrically-operated flaps (and also add the conical-section wingtips), add a fillet to the tail extension, replace the seats with fully-articulated seats (I don’t know if the 172C had them), replace the spring-steel landing gear with tubular legs (and also replace the nose gear, because the original just seems to hang down too much in flight), put in a 172S glass panel, and swap in a 180 hp Lycoming and cruise-pitch prop? Is that the aviation equivalent of [One Piece at a Time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_at_a_Time)? ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4458 "2023-09-06T22:40:28Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Or better yet, a new > [SOCATA TBM - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOCATA_TBM) I’ve a couple of friends who’ve each owned a variant of this model: a very comfortable & elegant way to get around. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4459 "2023-09-07T00:35:27Z")
I was reading a [NYTimes story](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/15/us/jfk-planes-delta-american-faa.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article) about a January 2023 “near-miss” at JFK between two aircraft on the runway: > A close call at Kennedy International Airport Friday night in which an American Airlines plane crossed a runway in front of an oncoming Delta Air Lines plane appeared to have occurred when the American Airlines pilots misconstrued directions from air traffic controllers, radar records and recordings of those conversations show. Later in the article they discuss cockpit voice recorders: > The safety board has urged the F.A.A. for years to require 25-hour recording capacity, [noting in a 2018 report](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/ASR1804.pdf) that “unfortunately, recent safety investigations have been hampered because relevant portions of the recordings were overwritten.” I have long thought it a bit unbelievable that CVR’s normally only record 2 hours. Why aren’t they upgraded to record much longer times? Thinking of USB thumb-drives it seems clear that it would take no more physical space and cost about the same amount of money for the longer recording equipment (though of course there would be re-design and re-tooling costs, too). What’s the hold-up? I know it comes down to money but what causes the delay in changing the policy on this? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4460 "2023-09-07T01:17:26Z")
As always with aerospace stuff the design and approval process will cost tens of millions for something sold only in the 10s of thousands. Plus the labor and downtime to retrofit the fleet. So everyone in the industry has an incentive to argue the costs exceed the benefits. Except maybe the folks who make CVRs. Unrelated to that, FAA seems real big on pushing back at NTSB on various improvements that don’t enhance safety themselves, but just enhance investigations. Which might, thereby, enhance safety later as a second order effect. That’s a very old-fashioned attitude now that so much of accident prevention is about analyzing data associated with stuff that didn’t lead to an accident, but instead might have had things played out just a bit differently. In a sense, FAA allots themselves $X million per year in costs to impose on the operators to buy increased safety. Somehow longer CVRs have never been the closest most urgent snake in any year to date. Or so FAA says they believe. Even if FAA wanted to extend the duration, there’s a long-winded regulatory change comment and approval process of a couple of years to go from intent to mandate. For sure that could have been started any time in the last 10 years and would be long over by now. But given they haven’t started yet, that explains part of why it won’t happen sooner than a couple years from now even if they started tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4461 "2023-09-07T17:47:03Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > The operating costs are pretty simple. Take your disposable income and multiply it by 2. > > I thought that formula was for boat ownership! 😃 > > Regards, > A former boat owner I once heard that the best simulation of owning a yacht was to stand fully clothed in a cold shower for a few hours, tearing up $100 bills. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4462 "2023-09-07T18:09:03Z")
Just came across a reference to this 1939 Luftwaffe disaster. Ouch. > **[Accident Junkers Ju 87B Stuka (13x) ,](https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/67828)** > > A dive-bombing demonstration was being put on for senior Luftwaffe commanders. I./ St.G.76 commanded by Captain Walter Sigel was assigned the task. The demonstration was to be carried o... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=222) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=224)