# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 242
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4823 "2023-11-17T23:14:07Z")
Holy crap. A 787 with those low hanging engines. WOW. Offloading a cargo hold with a forklift brings back memories. That’s old school. Those people have to know what they’re doing or they will seriously damage a plane. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4824 "2023-11-18T00:16:19Z")
The good old days; getting 4 or 5 crew behind 463L pallets loaded with nuclear warheads and launching them from the C-141 ramp onto the waiting arms of a 10k forklift. 😬 😬 (Note to reader: this is forbidden and if I had been looking in that direction during the operation, I, as a safety officer, would have immediately stopped the practice). Sometimes I had to have the situational awareness of a WWE referee to get anything done. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4825 "2023-11-18T02:41:08Z")
Git 'er done! An important, albeit utterly unofficial DoD motto. BTDT have the ribbons to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4826 "2023-11-18T23:00:00Z")
My apologies if I mentioned this before about the ME-262 but if you look in the front of the engine there is a pull handle about the size of a lawn mower start handle. Yes, that’s exactly what it is. [A pull start to a 2 cylinder piston engine that is used to start the jet engine.](https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/me262/images/mep_me262_08.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4827 "2023-11-19T18:28:37Z")
> **[Mystery of ‘decades-old’ plane wreck in Canadian backcountry solved](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/19/yukon-canada-plane-crash-mystery-solved)** > > Police were stumped when ‘crashed’ plane was found in British Columbia, but it was placed there last summer for rescue training ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4828 "2023-11-19T18:48:32Z")
Did they think the bears hauled off the engine, wings, and tail assembly and then stripped out the interior? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4829 "2023-11-19T19:02:05Z")
Nope; vultures did it. Scavengers gonna scavenge. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4830 "2023-11-19T19:51:07Z")
Viktor Belenko has died: > **[Viktor Belenko, Who Defected to the West in a Jet Fighter, Dies at 76](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/18/world/europe/viktor-belenko-dead.html)** > > Among the highest-profile figures to flee the Soviet Union, he brought with him a secret weapon and firsthand experience behind the Iron Curtain. I have a book about him on my shelf. His personal story and what we learned from his MiG-25 were really interesting. I always laugh thinking how he must have startled the bejeezus out of the Japanese - landing his fighter at a civil airport and then firing warning shots in a reflex action to keep the airplane safe. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4831 "2023-11-19T21:37:59Z")
Soviet-era Russian men don’t have a great life expectancy even when they spend much of it in nicer environments. I met him once. Story here: > [@A Belenko-style alien contact scenario?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belenko-style-alien-contact-scenario/984456/5): > > I was in USAF a few years after Belenko defected. At that time he was employed by USAF as a speaker who presented a class on Soviet thinking to fighter pilots attending Red Flag. So I met the guy, albeit briefly. As did dozens of other people that morning. USAF / DoD did have quite a process at the beginning to decide how much to trust this guy and his story. The MiG-25 was unequivocal evidence, while everything he said might have been BS or a Soviet ploy to embed a double-agent in USAF. I… ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4832 "2023-11-19T22:53:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Soviet-era Russian men don’t have a great life expectancy even when they spend much of it in nicer environments. A long time ago, in an industry far far away from aviation, I worked with a number of people who had left the Soviet Union. They all seemed to go through a similar process, but how they ended up varied. It was a lot like that Robin Williams movie [Moscow on the Hudson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_on_the_Hudson). We would take them to a supermarket for the first time and they would seem alternately baffled and suspicious that it was some sort of propaganda tool. “No no, take me to REAL store.” They all tried to bribe police officers if they were pulled over while driving, and most had very harsh views on homosexuality. We found they either tended to flourish in the new freedom they experienced, or were scared and unable to cope (to say nothing of just being in a new country and not speaking the language). And there were a lot of drinking problems, irrespective. So if Belenko made it to age 76 I’d say that’s not bad, considering. In skimming through the book today I laughed again at some of the information that came up in the debriefing. One conversation went like this: US Agent: What’s your max speed in the MiG 25? Belenko: Mach 2.5 Agent: We clocked one in Egypt going over Mach 3. Belenko: Oh yes, that guy. You can do that ONCE. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4833 "2023-11-19T23:01:16Z")
I read his book, “MiG Pilot”. It was really good. I liked the part where after he defected he thought the grocery store he was shown was propaganda, a ‘Potemkpin store’ because he couldn’t believe that such varieties and quantities of food were just available for anyone to buy. His defection broke the spell of the MiG-25 being this super advanced machine. It wasn’t all that. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4834 "2023-11-20T02:27:39Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > We found they either tended to flourish in the new freedom they experienced, or were scared and unable to cope (to say nothing of just being in a new country and not speaking the language) This. Western defectors to the SU had the same challenges. It truly was a _Stranger in a Strange Land_ scenario far more so than today. I deeply admire the bravery needed to unequivocally and irreversibly turn your back on everything you find familiar. The process that took you there from “ordinary citizen” has got to be horrific. To say nothing of the crash engagement awaiting you on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4835 "2023-11-20T02:53:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > His defection broke the spell of the MiG-25 being this super advanced machine. It wasn’t all that. that was quite a plane in it’s day. Powerful engines, powerful radar ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4836 "2023-11-20T02:58:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that was quite a plane in it’s day. Powerful engines, powerful radar It could reach Mach 3.2 but that would damage its engines so it had to fly slower (still fast though) and it did not have look-down, shoot-down radar. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4837 "2023-11-20T03:20:35Z")
Yeah. Largely a one-trick pony which was mostly a Potemkin village. Not really much a a dangerous weapon system at all. But the USA whipped itself into a frenzy of fear over the damned thing. How much that was cynical exploitation by the industrial half of the military-industrial complex and how much was intelligence agency fear mongering is still very much an open question. And not one either side is keen to examine further. Allow no light in upon the budgetary gravy train magic. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4838 "2023-11-20T03:39:40Z")
I heard the MiG-25 was fast, but couldn’t maneuver… making it virtually useless in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4839 "2023-11-20T03:43:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It could reach Mach 3.2 but that would damage its engines so it had to fly slower (still fast though) and it did not have look-down, shoot-down radar. Yes but it comfortably flew at Mach 2.5 and had a good climb rate. It . It wasn’t an F4 Phantom but was also not something to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4840 "2023-11-20T03:58:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I heard the MiG-25 was fast, but couldn’t maneuver… making it virtually useless in the real world. They likely feared US development of supersonic bombers. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4841 "2023-11-20T04:02:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I heard the MiG-25 was fast, but couldn’t maneuver… making it virtually useless in the real world. It was an interceptor only (chasing bombers). It was never meant as an air-to-air fighter (although I am sure the Soviets were happy to let the US think it could do that too). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4842 "2023-11-21T01:37:34Z")
Mistakes were made: > **[Port Phillip Bay plane crash: wreckage of ex-military jet found in water](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/21/port-phillip-bay-plane-crash-wreckage-ex-military-jet-found-mornington-james-rose-stephen-gale)** > > Victoria police believe pilot Stephen Gale and camera operator James Rose were still on board at time of crash near Mornington > They collided midair and one crashed into the water while the second landed safely at Essendon airport with two people – including off-duty Qantas captain Joanne Mein – on board. > > The business was created for the TV documentary _Any Fool Can Fly_, which is yet to air, according to the show’s website. I can’t tell if the surviving plane was piloted by a student, but the one that crashed had an experienced pilot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=241) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=243)