# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 246
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4903 "2023-12-09T21:04:32Z")
Yep, [up 32%](https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/12/vans-announces-new-kit-pricing-and-changes-to-kits-contents-and-ordering-policies/) > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Each of those looks to me like an attempt to capture a little more incremental market share at the cost of maintaining inventory for another different aircraft. And the problem is that it can take decades for some people to finish a kit, so you have to keep all the parts on hand even for defunct designs. That problem will get far worse when they have to deal with 12 different airfraft designs. It isn’t quite that bad. The older (3,4,6) were all different, but on the 7 and 8 the wing and tail are almost exactly the same and most parts are used for both. The 9 has the same fuselage as a 7 but different wing and stabilizer. They got into trouble more by not raising prices to keep up with inflation and then not doing good enough quality control on some subcontracted parts. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4904 "2023-12-10T05:39:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I remember the Qantas Flight-32 which had one. A long but fascinating read by the inimitable Admiral Cloudberg: > **[A Matter of Millimeters: The story of Qantas flight 32](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/a-matter-of-millimeters-the-story-of-qantas-flight-32-bdaa62dc98e7)** > > How a mistake of less than half a millimeter in a single part nearly brought down the world’s largest passenger aircraft. Do you like Swiss cheese? Because there is a lot of Swiss cheese in this story. It came down to a hole that was drilled a few tenths of a millimeter off. You’ll have to read the rest to find out how it almost brought down the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4905 "2023-12-10T15:05:31Z")
Quite the tale. 150 meters left of a 4000 meter runway. It’s pretty amazing the plane flew again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4906 "2023-12-10T17:01:33Z")
they had 50 meters left of what the computer calculated they had based on the long list of mechanical issues. No big deal 100,000 lbs over safe landing weight anti-lock brakes don’t work 1 of the hydraulic systems damaged Damaged flaps requiring higher landing speeds Cockpit instruments and radio are running on battery power and only 1 radio Leaking fuel #1 and #4 engine operating in degraded mode landing gears had to be gravity dropped 4 tires blown because plane overweight and high landing speeds can’t shut off 1 of the engines after landing overheated brakes that could ignite the leaking fuel bathroom door wouldn’t lock (kidding) Really great job by the crew. They had a Check Captain in training and a Supervising Check Captain so that had to be a fortuitous addition of assets to help divide the emergency work load. I’m curious as to why they didn’t deplane because of a fear of a possible fuel fire due to hot brakes. It’s a long plane and departing from the back seems feasible. Maybe because they had to use a limited source of water to shut down the runaway engine. It’s not like there are fire hydrants along the runway to tap into. It would be interesting to read about the exchange with the fire department. That has to be a story in itself. I wonder if the engine that couldn’t be shut down was stuck on cruise thrust. That would have generated differential thrust in landing configuration. And with the engine running that means the brakes have to hold the plane from moving which means they might have to chock the wheels. Who wants to do that with brakes that are glowing red from heat that are roasting the already overheated tires which are ready to explode. Exploding tires are literally that. They’re exploding with a tremendous amount of energy and molten rubber. I’ve seen a semi-truck tire explode on the highway and it was scary. The Captain wrote 2 books on it so I’m sure everything is explained in detail. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4907 "2023-12-10T17:17:32Z")
Weird airplane of the week: **[Transavia PL-12 Airtruk](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg/450px-Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg)** [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg/450px-Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg/450px-Transavia_PL12_Airtruk_Hazair_03.88.jpg) I SO want to fly one of these. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/d3/fb/89d3fb9c7b1497c6ddd05cf78aa21ebd.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/d3/fb/89d3fb9c7b1497c6ddd05cf78aa21ebd.jpg) They could load the crop dusting material from in between the tail booms while the engine was running and just taxi off with the truck still there. They could stuff 2 people in the back facing backwards but they couldn’t open the door with the flaps down. [![](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/788622780892212488/BED90A21CD0E574BB856A82424917911B76C745A/) ](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/788622780892212488/BED90A21CD0E574BB856A82424917911B76C745A/) ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4908 "2023-12-10T17:37:24Z")
  Not really all that similar, but that makes me think of the [PZL M-15 Belphegor, the only production jet-powered biplane.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor) [](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor) [![](https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/pzl-m-15-belphegorl-the-remarkable-story-of-the-world-s-only-jet-engine-crop-duster_2.jpg) ](https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/pzl-m-15-belphegorl-the-remarkable-story-of-the-world-s-only-jet-engine-crop-duster_2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4909 "2023-12-10T23:09:11Z")
Wow. If my dog looked like that, I’d shave its butt and teach it to walk backwards. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4910 "2023-12-10T23:38:29Z")
It may not be the ugliest flying machine ever, but it’s top 10 for sure. Makes me think a tornado hit a hangar & somebody welded together the bigger surviving chunks as best they could. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4911 "2023-12-10T23:45:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Makes me think a tornado hit a hangar & somebody welded together the bigger surviving chunks as best they could. While under the influence of mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2023, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4912 "2023-12-10T23:54:46Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Makes me think a tornado hit a hangar & somebody welded together the bigger surviving chunks as best they could. The makers of _Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome_ thought the same, apparently. The cars were welded-together from whatever parts they could find… for the Airtruk, they thought it fit the movie aesthetic without changing a bit. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4913 "2023-12-11T00:30:16Z")
Yeah. But … The PZL-15 was actually a useful machine despite appearances. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4914 "2023-12-11T02:21:33Z")
Late add … I _Ioved_ the Mad Max aesthetic. So plausible for post-apocalyptic techno-society. I have no idea who got an Oscar for what, but the designers totally deserved several. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4915 "2023-12-11T02:24:57Z")
It was a typical Russian mindset that insisted Poland make the biggest and the bestest plane to replace the AN-2. It had to be a jet which makes no sense as a crop duster. It never met the efficiencies or ease of maintenance of the old plane for obvious reasons They eventually abandoned it and went back to the AN-2. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4916 "2023-12-11T14:33:08Z")
Ha! > **[Nearly half of men think they can safely land a plane in an emergency, survey...](https://inshort.geartape.com/nearly-half-of-men-think-they-can-safely-land-a-plane-in-an-emergency-survey-finds/)** > > However, such incidents tend to take place in small, simple aircraft. Flying a much bigger and heavier commercial jet is a completely different game. The weird thing is, from reading this thread over the years, I am the complete opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4917 "2023-12-11T17:45:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The weird thing is, from reading this thread over the years, I am the complete opposite. WOW. Landings are a high percentage of flying skill. Very unlikely a non-pilot could pull it off. I personally know someone who understood the parameters of flight better than a lot of pilots. He eventually became a pilot and might have pulled it off prior to instruction. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4918 "2023-12-11T21:53:33Z")
Mentour Pilot talks (by radio) non-pilot Tom Scott through landing a 737 in a professional-grade 6-axis (I think) training simulator. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/AbTDzPUDxqY/maxresdefault.jpg "I'm not a pilot. Can I land a 737?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTDzPUDxqY) Here’s the Mentour Pilot video on the same event. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YaOvtL6qYpc/maxresdefault.jpg "Challenge Accepted! Can Tom Scott Land a B737 By Himself?!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvtL6qYpc) Four years ago, Petter explained what steps a non-pilot would have to take to put a plane into autoland. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ePDl1JNqjpM/hqdefault.jpg "How YOU can land a passenger aircraft! 12 steps") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePDl1JNqjpM) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4919 "2023-12-11T21:55:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > WOW. Landings are a high percentage of flying skill. Very unlikely a non-pilot could pull it off. Well, you do have to come in pretty low to land those things. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4920 "2023-12-11T22:01:05Z")
I wonder how things change if the person has a plane full of passengers and their own life on the line when landing as opposed to knowing they are in a simulator and will not die if they mess up? In other words, dialing the stress level to 11. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4921 "2023-12-12T01:42:25Z")
Pffft. Landing is easy; it’s the walking away part that’s hard. (someone had to say it!) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/4922 "2023-12-12T02:42:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, you do have to come in pretty low to land those things. The only certainty in aviation is gravity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=245) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=247)