# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 268
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5343 "2024-01-23T23:56:16Z")
There are only two hard problems in software: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5344 "2024-01-24T00:14:50Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If the disgruntled Boeing guy is to be believed, there is a management driven culture of finding ways to half-ass stuff whenever and wherever possible. By winking correctly with their blind eye, they could skip 8 man-hours of work & move the job to the next stage today, not 3 days from now. So they did. > > When that attitude becomes the norm, it makes a mockery of everything else. problem probably compounded by the fact that “nothing happened” when you did it the first time … or the second … or the 98th time … this is exactly the entrance to a place called “sliding slope” … you start out with the grip handle of the lavatory and then end up screwing up a plug… what is remarkable (to me at least) … i strongly assume the Boeings of this planet have complete and utter tracability and can easily determine who screwed up (or didn’t screw down) something 3 years ago … ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5345 "2024-01-24T00:21:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > There are only two hard problems in software: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors. I came, I saw and I snickered … all two of them ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5346 "2024-01-24T03:26:48Z")
Regardless of their procedures for working on the door there should be a general procedure for “where do these left-over parts go?” Something I learned as a teenager when I put a transmission back on and had everything tightened and connected only to glance over and see the spacer leaning up against the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5347 "2024-01-24T03:44:40Z")
[Reuters - 23-Jan 2024](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-presses-suppliers-tightening-bolts-after-loose-parts-found-737-max-9-2024-01-23/) **Exclusive: Boeing presses suppliers on tightening bolts after loose parts found in 737 MAX 9 checks** - Boeing issued a bulletin to its suppliers late last week that laid out practices to ensure bolts are properly torqued after multiple airlines reported loose hardware during inspections of the grounded 737 MAX 9, according to a memo seen by Reuters. - The U.S. planemaker said that it is “imperative” that suppliers meet quality requirements, according to a Jan. 17 memo seen by Reuters, issued weeks after an accident when [a panel ripped off](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-shares-slide-frankfurt-after-faa-grounds-some-max-9s-2024-01-08/) of a 737 MAX 9 jet while in mid-air. The pictures in the news show what look like regular bolts/nuts without any pinning to prevent them from backing out. I would think this is a good time to modify the assembly with a secured assembly and not rely on torque settings. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5348 "2024-01-24T04:19:27Z")
Safety wire? Duct tape would be cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5349 "2024-01-24T04:26:36Z")
Sounds like a line on a resume for Boeing executives. They should seriously go back to promoting engineers from within and keeping them in Seattle. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5350 "2024-01-24T04:36:48Z")
I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5351 "2024-01-24T06:44:53Z")
But that would mean the executives can afford only three yachts each, instead of four, so obviously that’s not an acceptable solution. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5352 "2024-01-24T09:21:15Z")
Left unsaid in the article was what kind of bolts were found loose? Bolts in the spar or door attachments? Huge problem. Bolts holding up the trays in a galley cart? Not so much. There are a gazillion bolts in a large jet that are not structural or flight critical. Of course loose bolts anywhere is symptomatic of a poor safety culture and poor QC, ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5353 "2024-01-24T22:44:20Z")
Interesting article… Dominic Gates of the Seattle Times apparently has spoken with the whistleblower that posted the long comments about the specific 737 in question and the processes leading to records in the CMES and SAT trackers. He’s also spoken on the record with Ed Pierson, a former MAX production line manager, who confirms that the anonymous commenter clearly has inside knowledge of the work and systems, and that the comment raises safety issues that Pierson himself raised when he worked at Boeing. Perhaps most interesting, the reporter spoke with a different anonymous source that was also aware that the plug was removed and replaced without creating the appropriate logs and subsequent QA efforts, and that the undocumented removal and replacement was not done by workers from Spirit, but by Boeing itself. Ouch. > **[Boeing, not supplier, mis-installed piece that blew off Alaska Airlines MAX 9...](https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2024/01/24/boeing-not-supplier-mis-installed-piece-that-blew-off-alaska-airlines-max-9-jet-industry-source-says/)** > > The fuselage panel that blew off an Alaska Airlines jet this month was removed for repair but reinstalled improperly by Boeing mechanics on the Renton final assembly line, a person familiar with the details of the work told The Seattle Times. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5354 "2024-01-24T22:48:29Z")
The Seattle Times article that the story in the previous link was drawn from is here: > **[Errors by Boeing at Renton plant led to Alaska Airlines MAX 9 blowout,...](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-not-spirit-mis-installed-piece-that-blew-off-alaska-max-9-jet/)** > > The piece that blew off an Alaska Airlines jet this month was removed and re-installed improperly by Boeing mechanics in Renton, according to a person familiar with the details of the work. > The published whistleblower account does not explicitly state who removed and reinstalled the door plug in Renton. > > The information that it was Boeing mechanics who removed the plug is from a different source with knowledge of the repair, the person who cannot be identified because of the sensitivity of the ongoing investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5355 "2024-01-24T22:52:56Z")
Nevermind. This post contained a debunked claim. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5356 "2024-01-25T02:34:34Z")
The news said the FAA had finalized the procedure to follow to get the planes certified. They also plan on reviewing Boeing’s assembly process. Multiple airlines are rethinking future purchases and somewhere in the US it’s raining. Life goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5357 "2024-01-25T06:15:29Z")
> **[At United and Alaska airlines, frustration with Boeing's manufacturing...](https://apnews.com/article/united-airlines-ceo-boeing-manufacturing-problems-4090ea6176ef59e382dd18e9522596bc)** > > The CEOs of Alaska Airlines and United Airlines say they are frustrated and angry about ongoing manufacturing problems at Boeing. > [@](#): > > United has a standing order for Max 10 jets, a larger version of the Max line. However, that model and a smaller one, the Max 7, are years behind schedule for being certified by the Federal Aviation Administration. The grounding of the Max 9 jets is likely to further complicate Boeing’s drive to get the new models approved. > > Kirby said the Max 10 is at least five years behind schedule and could be pushed further into the future. > > “I think this is the straw — the Max 9 grounding — is probably the straw that broke the camel’s back for us,” he told CNBC. “We’re going to at least build a plan that doesn’t have the Max 10 in it.” That can’t be good for Boeing. It’s not a cancellation of the order, but it’s a signal that they’re willing to if that turns out to be the right move. > [@](#): > > Boeing said workers at its 737 factory would stop work on Thursday to hold a special session to focus on quality. I wonder whether any of them will be sufficiently frustrated to speak up and say to management “we aren’t the problem here, bucko.” > [@](#): > > “I am more than frustrated and disappointed. I am angry,” Alaska Airlines CEO Ben Minicucci told “NBC Nightly News” in an interview that aired Tuesday night. “My demand on Boeing is, what are they going to do to improve their quality programs in-house?” > > United CEO Scott Kirby said that Boeing needs “real action” to restore its previous reputation for quality. Genuine question: Does the top layer of Boeing management survive this? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5358 "2024-01-25T07:05:08Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Does the top layer of Boeing management survive this? Of course! Boeing will solve the problem by firing a few low level repair and quality assurance people–as well as that whistleblower who divulged Boeing trade secrets. And Boeing will help some deserving Congress critters with increased political contributions. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5359 "2024-01-25T13:06:06Z")
The FAA has just ordered that Boeing may not increase the production rate of 737s, nor open a planned new assembly line in greater Seattle until they get their shit together. If I was the BoD I’d be expecting to see root and branch firings throughout the production management team at every level. _Pour encourager les autres_. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5360 "2024-01-25T13:48:39Z")
The FAA just published a new notice of proposed rulemaking titled “Disclosure of Safety Critical Information” and it’s 100% in response to the Boeing problems (and their own oversight failures, let’s be honest, they trusted their delegates too much). The background material is a decently accessible primer on the process to obtain a type certificate and manufacturing certificate. It also discusses the safety assessment process and other safety related regulations. I haven’t finished reading it, with an eye on whether my employer wishes to provide comments, but I find it super fascinating to watch the regulatory landscape change (yes, I’m a nerd). My company works on projects designed to simultaneously meet FAA, EASA and Transport Canada requirements so changes in one country can affect others. Enjoy! [https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/01/25/2024-01485/disclosure-of-safety-critical-information](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/01/25/2024-01485/disclosure-of-safety-critical-information) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5361 "2024-01-25T14:43:08Z")
A stunning article (the first in a series): > **[Boeing Supplier Ignored Warnings Of “Excessive Amount Of Defects,” Former...](https://www.levernews.com/boeing-supplier-ignored-warnings-of-excessive-amount-of-defects-former-employees-allege/)** > > Weeks before Alaska Airlines’ terrifying debacle, one of the aircraft’s manufacturers was accused of systematically ignoring safety problems. One mind-blowing point is buried about halfway through: > [@](#): > > Workers cited in the federal complaint attributed the alleged problems at Spirit to a culture that prioritized moving products down the factory line as quickly as possible — at any cost. The company has been under pressure from Boeing to ramp up production, and in earnings calls, Spirit’s shareholders have pressed the company’s executives about its production rates. > > According to Financial Times, after the extended grounding of Boeing’s entire fleet of 737 Max airlines following two major crashes in 2018 and 2019, “the plane maker has sought to increase its output rate and gain back market share it lost to Airbus,” its European rival. So not only did they learn nothing from the grounding after the crashes, they actually tried to play catch-up on what they lost during the down time, and ended up making their problems worse. Astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5362 "2024-01-25T14:45:45Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Genuine question: Does the top layer of Boeing management survive this? No… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=267) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=269)