# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 278
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5543 "2024-02-21T23:31:42Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Unless she gets authority to fire and to reorganize at will, and authority to delay at will, she’s simply the next sacrificial lamb. > > I sure dont know which she is. But there will be blood. Looking at her LinkedIn page, Katie Ringgold had a technical job during the 4 years she was in the Air Force (Communication and Navigation System Journeyman?), but her B.S. is in Business Management and she has an MBA. Looks like most of the jobs she’s had were non-technical. So, another non-engineer is in charge. At least Elizabeth Lund started here career as an engineer (B.S./M.S. in ME). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5544 "2024-02-21T23:43:50Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > At least Elizabeth Lund started here career as an engineer (B.S./M.S. in ME). That’s a good sign. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5545 "2024-02-22T18:07:19Z")
Hadn’t heard about the Airbus A340’s problems before: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/the-a340/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/travel/the-a340/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5546 "2024-02-22T20:45:57Z")
IIRC, the A340 was designed when ETOPS rules were stricter, meaning twin engined planes had to stay fairly close to a suitable diversion airport. Back then having four engines allowed more direct routes across oceans. But now ETOPS has evolved, and engine technology has improved, to the point where anything an A340 can do a 777 or A350 can do more efficiently. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5547 "2024-02-22T23:48:32Z")
Yeah. A bit like the tri-jets, it was doomed at birth but nobody knew that yet. It was never a great seller and is being parked _en masse_ over the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5548 "2024-02-22T23:53:29Z")
I think the 727 is the exception. It was designed for a short field and remote areas. Heck, it came with it’s own stairs. It was a beast in it’s day when fuel was cheap. The concept was to use the 3rd engine to get it off the ground and then cruise on the other 2. The final design uses all 3 engines for cruise. It’s a thirsty plane on 3 engines and has the burn rate of a 767. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5549 "2024-02-23T00:55:26Z")
I meant only the pre-ETOPS widebody DC-10 & L-1011. The earlier tri’s: 737, Trident and Soviet stuff was all designed in a different era to solve a different problem: inadequate thrust engines to enable medium range twins. The 727 was fuel-efficient the day it was born. And an abhorrent gas hog 20 years later. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5550 "2024-02-23T01:19:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The concept was to use the 3rd engine to get it off the ground and then cruise on the other 2. If I remember correctly, isn’t that how the Trident worked, using all three engines for takeoff but just two in cruise? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5551 "2024-02-23T01:43:55Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > If I remember correctly, isn’t that how the Trident worked, using all three engines for takeoff but just two in cruise? I’m not familiar with it and have been trying to verify that. It’s an interesting plane. I didn’t know the nose gear was offset and retracted sideways. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5552 "2024-02-23T01:57:16Z")
That was totally NOT how the 727 was operated. All 3 engines were run at the same RPM / EPR the whole time. The slight exception was that the two outboards powered the air conditioning system while the center normally did not. At the start of each descent it was typical for the pilot flying to pull the center #2 throttle to idle and start to nose over to maintain IAS. Then announce “Air!” to alert the flight engineer that they were about to reduce the outboards to idle and thereby trigger a pressurization excursion as the bleed air supply shrank. The FE would then fiddle their various override knobs in opposition to the pilot’s ginger outboard throttle movements to attempt to damp the transients. The same thing happened at level-offs from descent. #2 would be unceremoniously shoved up to well above the level flight setting, “Air!” would be called, then the other throttles would be gingerly advanced while the FE used their auto pressurization override features to dampen the transients.Then #2 throttle would be reset to match the others. Over and over, all the way from takeoff to cruise to touchdown. It took a _lot_ of coordinated 3-person finesse to fly that jet well. Sitting in back you could sure tell which crews cared, and which were indifferent hamfists. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5553 "2024-02-23T15:30:59Z")
So if you wanted to move a Viking DHC-6-400 Twin Otter to the Fiji Islands how would you do it? [problems because of lack of range] > **[Sergey Brin sued by widow of pilot who died ferrying plane](https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/23/sergey_brin_wrongful_death_lawsuit/)** > > Lawsuit accuses contractor and co-defendants of 'pacify and delay' tactics ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5554 "2024-02-23T17:43:24Z")
Sergei Brin was named because he has deep pockets. This sounds like an error made by an employee of a company subcontracted to a Brin company. Holding Sergei Brin personally liable seems like a real stretch. And the language is incredibly tendentious. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5555 "2024-02-23T18:09:51Z")
Note the full legal filing [more interesting than the article] is available at: > **[macleanvbrinetal.pdf](https://regmedia.co.uk/2024/02/22/macleanvbrinetal.pdf)** > > 1148.69 KB The widow seems most upset at the failure to recover her husband’s body even though Brin promised it would be done. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5556 "2024-02-23T21:46:01Z")
Just how they tried to but you do a better job of installing the ferry fuel system. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5557 "2024-02-23T22:50:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hadn’t heard about the Airbus A340’s problems before: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/the-a340/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/travel/the-a340/index.html) I just arrived in MIA from a short vacation. While riding the tram to the train station for my ride home I got to watch a Lufthansa A340-600 arrive. Very pretty. Very rare too. > [@WildaBeast](#): > > If I remember correctly, isn’t that how the Trident worked, using all three engines for takeoff but just two in cruise? No. But you’re _real_ close. The later model Trident 3 and 3B had _4_ engines. There were the original 3 in the same layout as the basic Trident 1 & Trident 2 (and the 727). A fourth smaller takeoff booster engine was installed just above number 2. The main engines produced 10K to 12K lbs thrust each depending on the model, whereas the booster produced around 5K# thrust. The booster had a small intake duct riding piggyback on #2’s duct at the base of the vertical fin. The #2 engine itself was buried in the aft fuselage & its exhaust came out where the fuselage tail cone would otherwise be, much like a 727. The booster sat up a bit higher, in the bottom of the fin, so there was a very obvious cowling bulge for the engine and then the exhaust poking out just above the base of the fin. Here’s a **[pretty good pic from astern showing the booster exhaust](https://images.app.goo.gl/CjG5G5zMEMMFBmkp6)**. And one from the **[front showing the small piggyback booster intake](https://images.app.goo.gl/rjpAuZTvnopiKMJQ6)**. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5558 "2024-02-23T23:20:17Z")
Thanks for the pictures. It looks wildly inefficient from an airflow perspective and needlessly complex (add more engines!!). But if you need the thrust; whaddaya gonna do! ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5559 "2024-02-23T23:27:48Z")
well … . [![](https://www.flightmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/B-47.jpg) ](https://www.flightmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/B-47.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5560 "2024-02-24T00:03:36Z")
I use to really look forward to the [Blue Angels JATO launch of Fat Albert](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHOvoO-6nWQ). And the SR-71 fly over. And the Concorde. And the Avro Vulcan. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5561 "2024-02-24T00:12:02Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > The widow seems most upset at the failure to recover her husband’s body even though Brin promised it would be done. Does Brin have a special submarine for retrieving planes that are 1/2 mile underwater? And while I’m thinking about it did the pilots do a test run with the tank mod to see if it works? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5562 "2024-02-24T00:19:41Z")
Obviously Brin doesn’t have such a submarine, but vehicles exist which could be rented. In the legal filing I believe she specifically mentioned the submersible used to recover the Titan submersible remains. The details about her complaints are in the legal filing I referenced above. > **[macleanvbrinetal.pdf](https://regmedia.co.uk/2024/02/22/macleanvbrinetal.pdf)** > > 1148.69 KB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=277) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=279)